EVO vs. E46 M3
Evolving Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 233
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From: Porter Ranch, CA
Originally posted by BurnOutz
The new S4 weighs about 3600 pounds (nearly the same as its predecessor). That is about 200 more pounds than the M3.
The new S4 weighs about 3600 pounds (nearly the same as its predecessor). That is about 200 more pounds than the M3.
Curb weight: 3523 lb
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 7
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Who cares which one is faster. The faster it gets, the closer you are to heaven. Just enjoy the ride and look of your car because you don't really want to wreck it. By the way, he is your cousin no need for competition(although I say it this way, competitions always exist between cousins, especially when both male).
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 188
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From: Pottstown, PA
Originally posted by brads
When I see Roy Disney pull into work in his ferarri all I see is a man that can't shift worth a damn and ends up redlining that poor car to death.. I dont see a high performance car I see a low performance car..
You can keep those exotic cars with all their quirks, attitudes and handling antics for the professional drivers..
for you and me on the street....AWD baby!... without a doubt!
I no longer want some rear wheel drive car thats gonna end up spun in a ditch sometime in the future.. I want a car I can push to the handling edge like my old VR4 but without the weight!
When I see Roy Disney pull into work in his ferarri all I see is a man that can't shift worth a damn and ends up redlining that poor car to death.. I dont see a high performance car I see a low performance car..
You can keep those exotic cars with all their quirks, attitudes and handling antics for the professional drivers..
for you and me on the street....AWD baby!... without a doubt!
I no longer want some rear wheel drive car thats gonna end up spun in a ditch sometime in the future.. I want a car I can push to the handling edge like my old VR4 but without the weight!
If you're spinning the rear tires all day long in a RWD car, then you should either a) stop launching, or b) take it easy.
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,136
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From: Arlington, TX
jedi - reread your post, you contradict yourself. The Evo has more torque than the M3 and it is across more of the rev range. And as you said torque makes it much easier to win road race, pulling out of corners. That's a big reason the Evo does so well on the tracks. Also your weight to HP and TQ numbers are misinterpreted. The lower the number the better. It's less weight having to be driven by torque or horspower. THe whopping weight to tq ration of the M3 is bad! that's more weight the torque has to move. The Evo weighs less and makes more torque, hence it has a lower and better ratio.
Both cars are nice, though. be careful to be clear.
Both cars are nice, though. be careful to be clear.
Originally posted by jedinite
Coming in late to this thread.
I'm a former e46 M3 owner. A serious track junkie. An amateur race car driver. I've also been president of my local chapter of the BMW Car Club of America and currently serve on its board of directors. I've been a BMW-afficianado for most of my life.
Rebutting a couple of points and providing my opinion to some others:
1) Blown engines. Check out this site: http://members.roadfly.org/jason/m3engines.htm specifically this page: http://yoy.com/auto/m3_failwhat.shtml
BMW had a problem engines produced between October 01 and March 02. BMW has acknowledged the issue, and has issued a service action for the cars built during these dates in which they tear down the engine and replace the bad parts with new good parts. BMW has also stepped up to the plate and extended the engine warranty to 6 years/100k miles. See http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...threadid=62570 for warranty details.
These things happen, especially with a highly stressed, brand new engine (hello, US STi
). What is important is how the manufacturer handles the situation. BMW has been excellent in this regard.
2) The e46 M3 is faster than a stock Evo 0-60, with an easily repeatable 4.6 - 4.7 0-60. That's a lot faster than ~5.0 of the Evo. Most of this isn't due to horsepower or even gearing, its due to the trick differential. BMW M developed a new application of differential technology that is flat-out amazing at putting power to the ground in the event of slippage. The M3 launches like a banshee with a 3000 - 4000 RPM clutch drop launch - just a slight squeal of the tires and the car rockets away. To get an equivilant launch from the Evo, you've got to feather the cluch from 5000 RPM plus. A lot harder to do. And even if properly executed, the Evo (stock) is slower than the M3 up to 60mph. The M3 just has more power available across the entire power band.
Now, as we've seen here, with a handful of modifications the Evo can easily move in to (and well beyond) M3 acceleration ranges. In addition to its impressive 0-60, the M3 turns the quarter in ~13.3. . Pretty close to the Evo's mid 13 times. And easily equippted by a 12-second Evo such as we've seen on this board from a few people.
3) The Evo is faster, stock for stock, than an e46 M3 on the track. Not super significantly faster, but faster none the less. Equal drivers would be able to reel in and pass the M3 in an Evo on the track. The Evo has a significant edge in handling and a slight but statistically significant edge in braking. The M3 has an edge in power, but power to weight is pretty close. Evo is 12.04 pounds per HP and 11.95 pounds per TQ. The M3 is 10.26 pounds per HP, but a whopping 13.03 pounds per TQ. And as racers know, its torque that wins races.
4) the M3 is an amazing package. Like the Evo, it runs in to supercar territory for a lot cheaper than most. However, it has a much more significant focus on luxury than the Evo. The M3 is a lot heavier, with a lot softer suspension, with a lot more sound deadening. Well equipted stock, the M3 offers a number of luxury-driven options like leather, navigation, premium sound, etc etc. Not to mention the awesome Sequential ///M Gearbox (SMG). The M3 is an amazing car, and a good comparison to ours in a lot of ways. The Evo is a flat-out race/rally car, with just enough street car swapped in to make it legal. The M3 is a luxury sports sedan, with enough race technology mixed in to make things very interesting.
I've rambled long enough... for now.
Coming in late to this thread.
I'm a former e46 M3 owner. A serious track junkie. An amateur race car driver. I've also been president of my local chapter of the BMW Car Club of America and currently serve on its board of directors. I've been a BMW-afficianado for most of my life.
Rebutting a couple of points and providing my opinion to some others:
1) Blown engines. Check out this site: http://members.roadfly.org/jason/m3engines.htm specifically this page: http://yoy.com/auto/m3_failwhat.shtml
BMW had a problem engines produced between October 01 and March 02. BMW has acknowledged the issue, and has issued a service action for the cars built during these dates in which they tear down the engine and replace the bad parts with new good parts. BMW has also stepped up to the plate and extended the engine warranty to 6 years/100k miles. See http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...threadid=62570 for warranty details.
These things happen, especially with a highly stressed, brand new engine (hello, US STi
). What is important is how the manufacturer handles the situation. BMW has been excellent in this regard.2) The e46 M3 is faster than a stock Evo 0-60, with an easily repeatable 4.6 - 4.7 0-60. That's a lot faster than ~5.0 of the Evo. Most of this isn't due to horsepower or even gearing, its due to the trick differential. BMW M developed a new application of differential technology that is flat-out amazing at putting power to the ground in the event of slippage. The M3 launches like a banshee with a 3000 - 4000 RPM clutch drop launch - just a slight squeal of the tires and the car rockets away. To get an equivilant launch from the Evo, you've got to feather the cluch from 5000 RPM plus. A lot harder to do. And even if properly executed, the Evo (stock) is slower than the M3 up to 60mph. The M3 just has more power available across the entire power band.
Now, as we've seen here, with a handful of modifications the Evo can easily move in to (and well beyond) M3 acceleration ranges. In addition to its impressive 0-60, the M3 turns the quarter in ~13.3. . Pretty close to the Evo's mid 13 times. And easily equippted by a 12-second Evo such as we've seen on this board from a few people.
3) The Evo is faster, stock for stock, than an e46 M3 on the track. Not super significantly faster, but faster none the less. Equal drivers would be able to reel in and pass the M3 in an Evo on the track. The Evo has a significant edge in handling and a slight but statistically significant edge in braking. The M3 has an edge in power, but power to weight is pretty close. Evo is 12.04 pounds per HP and 11.95 pounds per TQ. The M3 is 10.26 pounds per HP, but a whopping 13.03 pounds per TQ. And as racers know, its torque that wins races.
4) the M3 is an amazing package. Like the Evo, it runs in to supercar territory for a lot cheaper than most. However, it has a much more significant focus on luxury than the Evo. The M3 is a lot heavier, with a lot softer suspension, with a lot more sound deadening. Well equipted stock, the M3 offers a number of luxury-driven options like leather, navigation, premium sound, etc etc. Not to mention the awesome Sequential ///M Gearbox (SMG). The M3 is an amazing car, and a good comparison to ours in a lot of ways. The Evo is a flat-out race/rally car, with just enough street car swapped in to make it legal. The M3 is a luxury sports sedan, with enough race technology mixed in to make things very interesting.
I've rambled long enough... for now.
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 61
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From: Seattle, WA
Originally posted by crap_shoot
Sorry brads, but you are absolutely dead wrong about dry weather handling. In a RWD car, you're front wheels are free to turn the car, and you don't have the inside wheel pushing you through the turn (understeer). In a AWD car, you've got the same sh*t going on that you do in a FWD car, namely the power to the front wheels which is pushing you towards the outside of the corner.
If RWD is such a poor setup for handling, why are ALL of the best handling cars in the world RWD? Porche, BMW, all exotics, pro race cars, etc, etc, etc. Maybe it's easier to name all of the worlds best handling cars which are NOT RWD...here goes...
...ok then.
Sorry brads, but you are absolutely dead wrong about dry weather handling. In a RWD car, you're front wheels are free to turn the car, and you don't have the inside wheel pushing you through the turn (understeer). In a AWD car, you've got the same sh*t going on that you do in a FWD car, namely the power to the front wheels which is pushing you towards the outside of the corner.
If RWD is such a poor setup for handling, why are ALL of the best handling cars in the world RWD? Porche, BMW, all exotics, pro race cars, etc, etc, etc. Maybe it's easier to name all of the worlds best handling cars which are NOT RWD...here goes...
...ok then.
Porsche 911 Turbo. Is this RWD- NO IT'S NOT. Lamborghini Diablo, Murcielago, et al. RWD? NO! There are also a good many Bimmers which are AWD. Why could this be?
Maybe it's because when you have a lot of power, launching with RWD (esp on street tires) is an exercise in fighting excessive wheel spin. All your comments about AWD losing to RWD in drag racing have me shaking my head. Go watch some videos of DSMs and Skylines at the drag strip ripping out of the hole at insane speeds, leaving RWD cars in the dust. If you're going to pick at AWD's problems, for heaven's sake, don't try to argue that they're inferior at drag launches
All that said, I agree that RWD (in general) makes for the ultimate handling in the dry. However, that certainly didn't stop the Skyline GT-R from holding the record for the fastest time around Nurburgring in your blessed Teutonic wonderland for a good many years, beating out all Porsches, Bimmers, Ferraris, and other RWD challengers. The Evo also has a reputation for setting lap records, so it's AWD certainly doesn't seem to be holding it back.
Newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 36
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From: Bay Area
Originally posted by Mister2zx3
jedi - reread your post, you contradict yourself. The Evo has more torque than the M3 and it is across more of the rev range. And as you said torque makes it much easier to win road race, pulling out of corners. That's a big reason the Evo does so well on the tracks. Also your weight to HP and TQ numbers are misinterpreted. The lower the number the better. It's less weight having to be driven by torque or horspower. THe whopping weight to tq ration of the M3 is bad! that's more weight the torque has to move. The Evo weighs less and makes more torque, hence it has a lower and better ratio.
Both cars are nice, though. be careful to be clear.
jedi - reread your post, you contradict yourself. The Evo has more torque than the M3 and it is across more of the rev range. And as you said torque makes it much easier to win road race, pulling out of corners. That's a big reason the Evo does so well on the tracks. Also your weight to HP and TQ numbers are misinterpreted. The lower the number the better. It's less weight having to be driven by torque or horspower. THe whopping weight to tq ration of the M3 is bad! that's more weight the torque has to move. The Evo weighs less and makes more torque, hence it has a lower and better ratio.
Both cars are nice, though. be careful to be clear.
Originally posted by CornerHard
Lamborghini Diablo, Murcielago, et al. RWD? NO!
Lamborghini Diablo, Murcielago, et al. RWD? NO!
According to Lamborghini's own statistics, they built close to 1200 rear wheel drive Diablos, including all Diablos built before the introduction of the Diablo VT in 1993.
When they built the Diablo GT and Diablo GTR in 1999 and 2000, they were configured as RWD, despite the fact that most of the "ordinary" Diablos being sold at that time were AWD. These were the pinnacle of the Diablo line, with respect to performance, and Lambo quite rightly built them as RWD.
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 61
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From: Seattle, WA
Originally posted by jbrennen
Better check your facts on the Diablo.
According to Lamborghini's own statistics, they built close to 1200 rear wheel drive Diablos, including all Diablos built before the introduction of the Diablo VT in 1993.
When they built the Diablo GT and Diablo GTR in 1999 and 2000, they were configured as RWD, despite the fact that most of the "ordinary" Diablos being sold at that time were AWD. These were the pinnacle of the Diablo line, with respect to performance, and Lambo quite rightly built them as RWD.
Better check your facts on the Diablo.
According to Lamborghini's own statistics, they built close to 1200 rear wheel drive Diablos, including all Diablos built before the introduction of the Diablo VT in 1993.
When they built the Diablo GT and Diablo GTR in 1999 and 2000, they were configured as RWD, despite the fact that most of the "ordinary" Diablos being sold at that time were AWD. These were the pinnacle of the Diablo line, with respect to performance, and Lambo quite rightly built them as RWD.
Hi freinds i used to have a bmw m3 year 1994 euro version it had stock 286bhp i did made some mods this included exaust system a chip and a drop in k&n filter also change the sits and droped in some recaros to loose weight and also i change the rims for lighter ones!!
then a friend of mine buys and evo 8 2003 model so we decided to street race them first we started a 1st gear pull about 50km/h and we press the gas and inmediatly the m3 was ahead we tested the car from 50-220km/h but i got like 3 lengths of cars ahead of him both cars had 91 octane pump gas but the m3 was added a nos octane booster then we decide to test the cars from a standstill so he got ahead of me 3 car lengths in the 1/4 mile and the m3 was never catching on it i was amazed on this evo 8 so after spending like 1800 dolars on an exhaust system (supersprint) 1300 dolars on 2 recaro seats and 1200 dolars on a chip for the computer this added up 4300 dolars forgot to mention 1600 dolars on 4rims so the bmw m3 it was pretty expansive to modify it!! so guess what i decided to sell my m3 since it was a bit old but it only has 90000 km on the odometer and the motor blew once when it had 65000 km and my bmw dealer never gave me a clear explanation on why this happend guess what they told me beacause i race the car and by that time the car was completly stock!!!
so know i bought and evo 8 2005 but it is a japanese version cause i live in Honduras Central America and my mitsubishi dealer brings the cars directly from japan!
i plan on modifying it but with tuners like vishnu told me they dont carry the flashes for my Dme i think i will have to see with hks does anybody know who in the states could modify my DME since vishnu told me the usa version evo is different from the japanese evo ? thanks a lot!!
then a friend of mine buys and evo 8 2003 model so we decided to street race them first we started a 1st gear pull about 50km/h and we press the gas and inmediatly the m3 was ahead we tested the car from 50-220km/h but i got like 3 lengths of cars ahead of him both cars had 91 octane pump gas but the m3 was added a nos octane booster then we decide to test the cars from a standstill so he got ahead of me 3 car lengths in the 1/4 mile and the m3 was never catching on it i was amazed on this evo 8 so after spending like 1800 dolars on an exhaust system (supersprint) 1300 dolars on 2 recaro seats and 1200 dolars on a chip for the computer this added up 4300 dolars forgot to mention 1600 dolars on 4rims so the bmw m3 it was pretty expansive to modify it!! so guess what i decided to sell my m3 since it was a bit old but it only has 90000 km on the odometer and the motor blew once when it had 65000 km and my bmw dealer never gave me a clear explanation on why this happend guess what they told me beacause i race the car and by that time the car was completly stock!!!
so know i bought and evo 8 2005 but it is a japanese version cause i live in Honduras Central America and my mitsubishi dealer brings the cars directly from japan!
i plan on modifying it but with tuners like vishnu told me they dont carry the flashes for my Dme i think i will have to see with hks does anybody know who in the states could modify my DME since vishnu told me the usa version evo is different from the japanese evo ? thanks a lot!!
These posts are stupid. Mod your evo to the point where you have no question, then drive it until you have no question. Then take any punk a$$ kid whos parent have lots of dough and take those pieces of **** ans shove it up there a$$e$.
I sold my M3 and got an evo
Originally Posted by crap_shoot
I for one find the M3 very SICK! Getting that kind of power from a NA 6cyl. engine is a spectacular feat, and the driving experience of a BMW is second to none. I agree that the Evo is a great car for the money, but I'd be willing to bet that if you could get a E46 M3 with all the bells and whistles for $30K, there would be very few Evo's sold!
That being said, the M3 is over $50K "nicely equiped", so it's not a decision any of us will have to make. My point is that price aside, the M3 is quite sick!
That being said, the M3 is over $50K "nicely equiped", so it's not a decision any of us will have to make. My point is that price aside, the M3 is quite sick!
