I think I detect a tinge of sarcasm.

WRT to "safe" (i.e. knock-free) A/F ratios, we so far have only this opinion, from someone who was not present and doesn't know what boost was run:Ignoring the fact that jfh has never seen "similarly modifed Evo's" (i.e. ones with the Works flash, where ignition advance and boost might also have been modified), there doesn't seem to be anyone around who can confirm that the Works flash doesn't knock.

I am led to inquire about yet another aspect of this dyno comparison.

Where, exactly, was the dyno operator's wideband A/F ratio sensor mounted? Did both cars have an auxiliary O2 bung very close to the stock front O2 sensor (ideal)? Or was the dyno operator's wideband merely stuffed into the muffler? How far into the tailpipe did it reach? Were any catalytic converters still present upstream?

This may have been covered already, but this thread's become too unwieldy to easily see.

 

I'm pretty sure he was serious.



I can confirm that the WORKS has taken great pains to ensure that the Brain flash does not knock. This was not something that was rushed to market. Our ECU development team spent literally months on these maps with all kinds of datalogging to ensure that this was the case.

Knock Knock
Who’s there?
Not the WORKS Brain Flash

I can also confirm that the WORKS flash as tested in this thread did not raise peak boost above stock.

I'm going to guess in the tailpipe, but I'll let the guys that were there field this one.

-- DavidV

 

Since you're picking apart my response to other questions, pardon if I ask, but what "kinds of datalogging" confirmed that there was no knock? Can you share sound recordings/ data loggings with us peons?

To say your "development team spent literally months on these maps" is merely another way of saying your team spent 4xWeeks on these maps. I guess we're supposed to believe that your "team" was under no time pressure whatsoever to produce/release a "product."

Fine.

Let's hear some of the mpg files (WOT from 3-6K RPM) that demonstrate the absence of knock. You must have gigabytes of such tests laying around, after all of your painful testing.

BTW, DavidV, can you confirm that boost is ALWAYS stock? In other words, even though you may not raise the peak boost, do you also claim you do not achieve a higher boost at redline?

 

yeh, what he said. inquiring minds want to know.

 

I have much greater respect at this point for SHIV then for WORKS, and let me just vent for a second.

1. Why was it necessary for works to wait for a customer to record the A/F Ratios of their product? There was no question that this information would come out eventually, so there was really no need to hide it. i believe this is the biggest reason people are so agressive to WORKS.

2. This is a forum, where poeple share their ideas, opinions and occasionally actual facts. This also happens to be a place where companies can go directly to thier customer base to develop products adn gauge interest. There have been many companies that have done this successfully and WORKS as well as BUSCHER and VISHNU have all marketed sccessfully here.

3. If my point #1 can be accepted and people agree with point #2, then it stand to reason that the marketing/product development part of this forum should be kept seperate from the opinon/argument parts of this forum. There has been a lot of agressive posturing on the part of WORKS, and I really fel that it isn't needed.

WORKS please listen to me. I know that I have been critical of you in the past, but taking part in these types of arguments only hurts your reputation. There is plenty of room in the tuner market for 3 or even 4 tuners. There always will be, and there is nothing that can be done about it. How about trying to increase your credibility and shut some of the people up who are baiting you into an agrument by:

1. Posting dyno graphs of your throttle body with stock as well as modded cars. To my knowledge, this product has been out for some time, and yet, nothing is known about it.

2. Sepnd less time on the internet arguning, and develop some more parts? The "Exhale" on my opinion is very highly overpriced for what you recieve. That is just my opinion, but it begs the question, if you can develop an axle back so quickly, why not a cat-back or maybe even a turbo back?

3. Offer a boost tune option, or maybe offer a package. A differently tuned ECU and a MBC set at 19 PSI. That way, you could still maintain your price advantage iver other tuners, and offer similiar performance.

4. Take part in tuner shootouts. This is not only a HP battle, but develop some wheel tire packages and suspension mods that allow for even better handeling. That way, the car would be more competitive on road courses.

5. Innivate products. I have yet to see a lightened flywheel anywhere. There is a huge market for products that aren't even available. If you ever decided to offer wheel tire suspension packages, you could also offer some aero-body enhancements. On a company website, it would take 3 to 4 hours to program a FLASh media program where people could customize their cars to see what they look like before they bought any productrs. There are many such programs already in the marketplace, and although they do not need to be as fancy as some others, it would allow your customers to have something that other people don't, a preview of performance as well as a preview of the entire car.

I am tired of hearing about how much every is angery at WORKS, and quite frankly I am too. However, WORKS could fix this problem so easily, and it is amazing to me that it has not been done. Also, if there is no one who know computers who could design a hightech website, you can pay people 50 dollars an hour, and it will get done that way.

Everyone needs to stop the arguing and combative attitude, and actually spend the time doing something that everyone will enjoy. WORKS needs more/better products and needs to merket them more effectively. As a group, the people need to call out companies when they fell they are mislead or even to tell other members here, but remmeber in the end that acomplished nothing. People need to urge these companies to develop more products and hold manufactures to their claims about performance and make sure that people are held accountable. This post is 14 pages long, and 12.5 is an argument. One simple solution would be for WORKS to post thier A/F ratios themselves, so that the entire communirty here could see that they stand by their customers as well as their products. It is a shame that this kind of information has to come from other members and to the tuning companies themselves.

 

There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding about how datalogging works. You want to hear mpg files? I don't get it.

In any event, there is no way we (or any other tuner) is going to release work product upon demand much less post it on an internet message board. What reaction were you expecting: "Oh, someone just questioned our products, here let's prove them wrong by putting all of our logs, graphs, engineers notes, etc. in the public domain..."

Every WORKS customer has the opportunity to order a Brain Flash, try it for 30 days, and if not satisfied, send it back and have his/her ECU flashed back to stock for a full refund of the purchase price. During that 30 days, feel free to do your own datalogging and dyno evaluation just like Sir Lurks A Lot and TomsSound.

As far as production schedules go, sure we would like to make money just like everyone else. Obviously, the sooner a product is available for sale, the quicker one can bring in revenue. At WORKS, that's just not good enough. That's why took our time releasing the Brain flash and will continue to take our time doing thorough development, testing and evaluation of each new product before it is released to the public.

-- DavidV

 

No one is asking for your engineering notes or to divuldge trade secrets. the point is that the A/F ratio is an easy thing to determine, and with as many people who dyno their cars in this forum, it was bound to come out. WORKS needs to give the potential customers something that they are going to get anyway. David, we have all heard enough about this topic, you aren't going to change any minds in this forum post. Why not tel the forum what you are working on, and what your future plans are? You also need to stop worrying about the ECu reflash you have done too. The whole point is that is is invisible, raises the redline, and increases perofrmance. It is also reversable, and you get a 30 day money back free-trail. If that isn't good enough for some people, then who cares. There is also the added benifit that it costs 50% of some other tuning options. Good. We all get it. Even if your product puts out 4 or 5 hp less the other options (and I am not saying that it does) the extra money could be used to buy other performance parts that would more then make up for the difference.

So, Why don't you tell us what is upcoming in the future, and I know that you guys have a project car, who not post the dyno results of it, along with some performance numbers? if can only help your cause. From an outside point of view, the secrecy involved is what is making people mad. I can't be;ieve that this has not been understood by now. Post a project car, show the step by step upgrades and the performance upgrades, and put this argument to bed!

 

No sarcasm...I think 11.7:1 is plenty safe for a 93 octane tune. Most people I know tune for 12:1 at redline for a daily driven 93 octane turbo car.

I have never heard detonation from my evo.....on the track, street, or dyno......even on the 12.1:1 a/f pull on the dyno when I took out the air filter and box top. The ecu didn't get reset or have time to learn it was getting more air, so it ran leaner, but guess what......no pinging. You would definitely have heard it ping while on the dyno or seen it on the dyno graph if timing was pulled because of knock.

With that said I don't think the ears are a very good knock sensor to use for tuning. Maybe on my 72 vw beetle I would hope the factory sensor would pull timing before I could hear knock.

Stock boost levels are not raised with the WORKS flash.

 

alright there's two discussions going on in this thread. fine with me, i'll take on the first one, i.e Works brain flash A/F.

What gets me is why did it take Works "months on these maps with all kind of datalogging" to get 30 whp? And they still can't control boost.

Not saying the Brain Flash isn't a good product, they have control over timing (i hope all those months of research wasn't spent just developing an A/F curve) and can raise the rev limit. Plus its plug and play, not very fun but a big plus for a lot of people.

Maybe they should focus on marketing those aspects of the flash instead of praising all the time and research it took to make gains that a monkey with an SAFC and EBC can get (prob more, all while still maintaining a good margin of safety). Al's been saying this all along, its stupid easy to get these gains safely on an EVO.

 

Spit,

Do you even have an EVO? If not why do you care other then being a Vishnu deciple. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to go out and buy a SAFC and MBC. Some would like a plug and play that is not easily seen by a dealer (requires maintaining stock boost levels or close to it). Works is filling a void in the market. It really comes down to personal preference. I for one am happy with my results. It is EXACTLY what I wanted.

Mike

 

I just love how everybody here seems to know how to run a business AND program a reflash better than works... whatever happened to the days when if someone didn't like a product, they simply didnt buy it? The fact that the A/F looks safe, and EVERYBODY who'd had their car flashed has good things to say about it is enough for most... I haven't seen this kind of inquisition for any other upgrade, including the xede.

we all want to know more about the product, but a lot of people are lookign to shoot it down from the start.

 

You completely missed my point.

Where in my post do i mention anything about vishnu, let alone lead one to believe i am a vishnu deciple? (yes, i have vishnu parts/tunning on my car, doesn't make me worship them)

I thought i was clear but perhaps not, i am not bashing Works products in the least, i think there reflash is a great option for Evo owners. I am bashing Works marketing, whom make it seem like tunning is rocket science that only a team of dedicated engineers with months of reseach can come up with an A/F curve and timing stradegy to gain 30 whp on an Evo. I already mentioned that plug and play issue is a great feature of the reflash. Plus the price of the Works is great too. Hell my ECU is reflashed and i think its a great way to go.

And no i don't own an evo, just a fan. Didn't know were not welcome here.

 

spit... you are welcome here and we appreicate ur input. I think part of the reason works takes so much flak is because of their similar marketing for their Home Depot chromed 3"pi.... err.. "new and original Works Exhale"

 

My post from last night that I didn't get to put up here until today because my computer crashed:

Thanks for your feedback on this, but the decision not to release this information is company policy and is out of my hands. In any event, you would be surprised at the type of information to which people feel entitled. AF/Rs are one thing, the post above yours asks us to post our development files. Others have requested everything from ignition maps to boost maps. At the end of the day, we are in the business to develop and sell the best product that we know how, not to provide tuning tips on how we go about doing it. We have always been very supportive of our customers' testing and evaluating our products and will continue to provide as much solid feedback as we can about our upgrades. At the end of the day, Mrs. Fields doesn't tell you how to bake cookies and we don't want to be in the business of training our competitors on how to tune Evos.

My goal here is to educate and inform. I spend an amazing amount of my time on this board to better serve that end. I may not have all the answers, and there are some answers I just can't give, but I'd certainly like to think that my time here is worthwhile.

Note the title of this thread. My presence here is justified by the very fact that it is the WORKS product being discussed. How do you feel about Shiv's participation?

In due course. At least one of our customers has already supplied dyno charts for, and his impressions on, the Aperture. I'm sure more will follow. Keep in mind, that charts posted by people actually using our products all over the country tend to get a better response than charts posted by WORKS headquarters. I'm happy to post charts, but would rather our customers report their findings right here on the board.

I'm paid to be on here so that our engineers can be busy developing products. Trust me, this is not cutting into their development time. Also, the axle back was not developed quickly. None of our products are. The development of the Exhale goes all the way back to the Evo VII GSR that we first began developing parts on, and we are very thorough and methodical bringing products to market. That said, there will be another cluster of new products released from WORKS in the very near future.

The price advantage that we have is incidental. We build for quality, not price. That said, your feedback is again appreciated and the boost control enhancement will be released in the very near future.

We would love to. Keep in mind, that we have already released our Tarmac Wheels and Croxx Plate, with our adjustable swaybars, lowering springs, coilovers, rally wheels, clutch and a brake upgrades coming soon.

We have organized and run our own track day at Thunderhill with none other than Lauchlin O'Sullivan piloting the WORKS Evo, and have ourselves participated in rallycrosses and autocrosses all over the San Francisco Bay Area, winning top three finishes throughout. The minute we get invited to a tuner shoot-out, you can bet we'll be there.

Again, this is all good feedback and I appreciate your taking the time to post your thoughts. We have already been working on our line of aero components for some time now. In fact, we are the only tuning company of which I am aware that went to the length of renting a $150k Cyrax 3D laser scanner to scan the entire Evo from bumper to bumper. Instead of working off clay or foam moulds, are designers have been using industrial design programs capable of kicking out via direct output CNC incredibly accurate reverse moulds for these components. As far as I am aware, we are at the cutting edge of this technology, used more commonly by OEMs, but it has allowed us to dramatically reduce our production time while at the same time provided for unparalleled precision in both design and virtual testing of these pieces.

Our website is being overhauled as part of our effort to move to online purchasing, and we apologize if it has grown past its usefulness.

I try not to argue. I can be sarcastic at times, and I do like to poke fun on occasion, but I don't see 12 pages of argument here, and certainly if you read back through this thread, you'll find much, if not most, of those pages were filled seemingly endless back and forth arguing about the merits of various dynos -- a side discussion to which I did not contribute.

-- DavidV

 

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y. This is what I have been saying all along. A monkey can make power on a forced induction engine with little more than a boost controller and primitive fuel controller.

What the WORKS Brain flash provides is a smooth, totally linear power curve that is 100% reliable and repeatable, all without relying on increasing boost to do it. There is an art to doing this kind of from-the-ground-up mapping, and yes, it very literally did take months to develop.

-- DavidV