Opps, I guess it's my selective reading while skiming this thread. So what did the evo ran after the fix? How did the xede with the catback compared to "the full exhaust with hks EVC"?

If he is running a boost controller I've assume he has a boost guage to monitor it?

It's possibe that the works ecu is inconsistant? Maybe only the custome tuned get the 30+hp your talking about? Yes,it's also possible that evo is just weak with weak baseling but after works backed out of the event when the idea of the "off the shelf comparo has mentions" has given me doubts about their products.

 

Hey GTR!, that's ok man .... I do it as well sometimes (in regard to skimming).

The car ran best just under 13 second quarter after the vacuum hose was replaced. Not sure what he pumped boost up to though. And yes, the EVC has a digital gauge built in, but the car was still boosting fine at peak; however, the vacuum leak caused it to drop off significantly .... even worse than stock boost, thus having an adverse impact on his times.

I do not believe that the Works flash is inconsistent, although it tends to show slightly more or less improvements on different evo's, and in different geographical conditons. This is why .... if i decide to go the route of a reflash, I will attempt to customize my A/F's with a S-AFC while monitoring all of my settings on an AWD dynopack with wideband o2.

GTR, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Works is shady because it backed on that dyno-day Shiv's place. David and Shiv couldn't agree on the rules so it basically came down to David not feeling comfortable with a showdown on Shiv's own turf. Both of them were basically wrong on this one. As mentioned many times brfore by N105s (Jeff), the experiment should have been planned better and conducted in a controlled environment where all participents could fully understand what is taking place (comfortable, etc).

The two (Dave and Shiv) started arguing, they disagreed on things, one thing lead to another and it quickly tuned into a pissing contest where nobody ever wins. In the end, it was David that said "forget it" so naturally, he is perceived as shady and Works as having something to hide, right? BUT dude, you have to look at the entire picture, and the big picture reveals that both products seem to back up their claims. My argument with Shiv is that he is posting information that he really shouldn't be, because it is misleading, as well as obvious that he was quick to point out (in a subliminal way) that the Works mods are NOT making much power, without offering baseline (stock) dyno # 's. or any other info whatsoever. This is bogus info man ... because I've seen/witnessed the power increrase on a dyno (before and after Works mods).

My point ... don't be so fast to write Works off as credible man .... they are very dedicated to the evo (notice evo is the ONLY car they offer tuning for), so you should at least take a closer look at what they are doing before basing a conclusion off that kiddie pissing match at the forum between Shiv and David. Just my two cents bud ...

 

Ok,

A Works tuned car put down 210whp on Shiv's dyno that day. This same vehicle was not baselined on this dyno. The reasons for the numbers are unknown.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic... the recent Altered dyno that displays A/F ratios.

Mark

 

you all need to stop your whining and learn what the difference is between one type of drum spinning sae corrected dyno is in comparison to a dynamic resistance dyno, then come back and stop pretending your opinions have any validity when talking to shiv, he is the most thorough tuner around, period.

 

This from the guy that wrote: "... i saw the dyno with my own eyes, it was an improvement of about 11hp at the wheels on a dynamic dyno, so about 14-15 on a dyno jet, DONT BE PLAYED A FOO< BE SMART AND GO VISH NU" -- concordmitsunet



-- DavidV

 

I think it's funny how it's Works vs. Vishnu in many threads when there are other reflash tuners out there with Vishnu being one of them in the coming weeks. I can see it now, Vishnu vs. Vishnu

 

Here are the rest of the graphs from that day. If anybody thinks these numbers are low let me assure you that it was super hot and we had just driven 4 hours to get there. I will go back in the winter and gaurantee I will pick up another 20whp. I can feel it in the morning when I go to work or in the evening when it is cool. I just think of these dyno numbers as being the worst my evo will perform.





These next two were with the top of the air filter off and the element taken out. I let the car cool down for about 5 minutes. As you can see this leaned out the a/f a bit more.




Stock EVO

 

All I can about this whole mess is that I really didn't like the way WORKS was all shady about their products, but at least now we have something to go by. I still don't see why they don't post the A/F ratios themselves? I was there at the dyno day and saw the whole thing unfold with the car that laid down 210 with the works stuff and as far as I was concerned, I don't think that shiv skewed any numbers or did any "magic tricks" everyone was right there to see what was going on and the owner of the car even got to sit in with shiv, when shiv dynoed a stock evo. If i remember correctly, shiv even dynoed a car with an RMR exhaust and SAFC that pulled 245 at the wheels which is close to what his stage 1 puts out, and he said that the car was impressive. So, if he were out to make works look bad I would think that he would do the same to RMR and Apexi. All I am saying, is that everyone should just go with what they want and be happy with it!

 

is it me or is 11.8/1 pretty lean for the street???

 

11.8/1 is perfect. Now anything over 12.0/1 is starting to push it a bit on the street. Check out what AMS says about it ...


EVO VIII Tech

EVO VIII A/F Ratio

"Want more power out of your EVO you say? It’s actually pretty easy since the Factory tuned the ECU to run very rich and this kills power. The factory tuned the EVO VIII ECU this way for safety I’m sure, as they warranty the drivetrain for 5 years and want to protect the engine in case someone does something stupid. Lucky for us we can tune out some of the fuel and pickup about 30hp. We like to use the Apexi S-AFC (II) as it’s inexpensive, gives us good control over the fuel curve and has no drawbacks. The following graph shows a baseline stock EVO VIII versus the same car with an S-AFC installed and the fuel curve altered for more power (while still running safely). You can see the lower part of the graph shows the A/F versus RPM. The fuel curve starts going extremely rich at around 5500rpm on the stock run. We leaned out the fuel to about 12.0:1 A/F which picked up about 35whp. You can run a turbo car to about 12.5:1 A/F for max power but taking safety into consideration we’d prefer the average street car to run about 11.7-12.0:1 A/F. These runs were done on 93octane pump gas and everything else on the car was stock (including boost). Check back soon for an update on S-AFC settings or please call us for advice."

 

If you notice, your graphs are showing "SAE corrected" power. Judging by the conditions (93 deg and high humidity), your SAE correction factor was probably around 1.05-1.07. This means that the dynojet software was giving your numbers a 5-7% boost to help compensate for the conditions and to provide a somewhat accurate picture of what it *should* theoretically put down at room temp and standard humidity. To see what your car *actually* put down on that day, get a print out of Uncorrected output.

Just my 2c again,
Shiv

 

Shiv,

I was under the impression that there were no SAE standards to measure for AWD? I am not a tuner, so have no real knowledge just things I hear second hand.

Also I stated earlier that there is no weather station attached to the DynoJet at AA. All the other dynojets (2wd) that I have experienced used a dynojet weather station that would automatically do the adjustments.

I was hoping somebody would post how they (altered Atmosphere) inputs the ambient parameters or if they just use the same correction factors all the time?

 

Another thing, when I dynoed my NA integra on a dynojet the uncorrected numbers were like 200whp and the corrected numbers were 170whp. So the hotter more humid, the less correction there is? SAE is supposed to be at what 70 degrees or something?

When VISHNU did their dyno day it was 60 degrees and dry somebody said. So the corrections would have taken away hp, then and given hp to me the other day.

I don't think the corrections are very accurate at AA. We'll see after it cools off this fall.

 

It was 60 degrees and dry.. I was under the impression that AA's dyno numbers were uncorrected, and I definitly know that in my dyno printout, there was no weather info on it.

Shiv, you were there a few months back when i was there, you tuned with their dyno, do you know what their corrections are, if any?

If there are no corrections, then 210 for the stock evo sounds about right with how mine feels nowdays. if it is corrected, then it's probably the worst stock performer I've heard of yet. I dont think they got less than 118 or so on thedyno day at AA.

 

Really,

I put down 230.6 Hp and 246.3Tq at BM's Dyno jet in bound brook. Uncorrected power would mean then 241hp and 258.3tq SAE corrected by your math 1.05x230.6.

Yes pa!!! Oh boy my car is healthy!!!


Eric

Edit car is bone stock.