Works brain dyno with a/f coming soon
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally posted by evo1
Sorry Shiv, but 240 whp is typically 10-15 whp over what a stock evo would put down. So your claim is that a Works reflash, throttle body upgrade, and axle back exhaust only made 10 whp on your dyno......................yet those of us that are somewhat informed are aware that this mod combo typically makes 25-30 whp improvement over stock on every other dyno in the world.
So why don't u tell the real story then?
Sorry Shiv, but 240 whp is typically 10-15 whp over what a stock evo would put down. So your claim is that a Works reflash, throttle body upgrade, and axle back exhaust only made 10 whp on your dyno......................yet those of us that are somewhat informed are aware that this mod combo typically makes 25-30 whp improvement over stock on every other dyno in the world.
So why don't u tell the real story then?
Also, you can divide AWD Dynojet numbers by approx 1.15 and you'll get something awfully close to AWD Dyno Dynamics dyno numbers. And yes, this correlates quite nicely with our dyno sample pool, outliners and all.
Just my 2c,
Shiv
Originally posted by sir lurks alot
I used my "junk yard special". It definitely flows better than the stock muffler. With my current mods, I don't think my 1.5 ft. of pipe is hindering exhaust flow in any way, it is simply directing it out the bumper cutout. You have to remember the rest of the exhaust is less than 2.5 inch diameter crush bent pipe. My pipe is 3" crush bend. Even if the Works exhale gets a few more ponies than the one I made, I can't justify the extra cost per hp at this point. Don't get me wrong, this is a temporary solution, and I plan on upgrading my exhaust as budget permits. If you have the loot by all means buy the exhale, as it looks like a beautifully engineered and manufactured piece. I also look forward to seeing other exhaust products from WORKS.
I apologize AL, if I gave the impression that my junk pipe was the same as the exhale, which has to be the ultimate muffler delete pipe available. I tried to make that clear, while also pointing out to the penny pinchers that I only paid $36 for something I enjoy my evo more because of. Don't hate me if I have to get creative because I don't have your budget.
BTW great job on your latest dyno session. I am glad there is someone like you out there pushing the boundaries of what our cars are capable of. 
I used my "junk yard special". It definitely flows better than the stock muffler. With my current mods, I don't think my 1.5 ft. of pipe is hindering exhaust flow in any way, it is simply directing it out the bumper cutout. You have to remember the rest of the exhaust is less than 2.5 inch diameter crush bent pipe. My pipe is 3" crush bend. Even if the Works exhale gets a few more ponies than the one I made, I can't justify the extra cost per hp at this point. Don't get me wrong, this is a temporary solution, and I plan on upgrading my exhaust as budget permits. If you have the loot by all means buy the exhale, as it looks like a beautifully engineered and manufactured piece. I also look forward to seeing other exhaust products from WORKS.
I apologize AL, if I gave the impression that my junk pipe was the same as the exhale, which has to be the ultimate muffler delete pipe available. I tried to make that clear, while also pointing out to the penny pinchers that I only paid $36 for something I enjoy my evo more because of. Don't hate me if I have to get creative because I don't have your budget.
BTW great job on your latest dyno session. I am glad there is someone like you out there pushing the boundaries of what our cars are capable of.
NOT to knock SHIV or disrespect him in any way - BUT - to me it seems somewhat uncooth and out of place for vendors here to join in on threads discussing other vendor's products. To me its obvious that vendors who are in direct financial competition are hardly without personal bias and serious profit making motivations as they are commentsing
They are not doing this to be helpful - - they do it to help sell more of their stuff
I in a veyu humble way, I suggest that a vendor would be better served to just post info - good and bad - on their own web site and threads about thier own products and possibly how they compare to other similar products
Respectfully, by entering a debate here - between hobbiest users who are sharing ideas about how they enjoy these products - - you obviously invite and open the door for people to start bashing your products and making a crtique of what you are doing - - all of this I choose NOT to do
I have a very hard time restraining mylself from making my own personal observatiomns about your products - some of which are not very positive - - when you seem to feel free to swim about the forums like a shark biting on all these little vendors who are trying to tread water over in the shallow end of the pool
Just a suggestiion for your review
They are not doing this to be helpful - - they do it to help sell more of their stuff
I in a veyu humble way, I suggest that a vendor would be better served to just post info - good and bad - on their own web site and threads about thier own products and possibly how they compare to other similar products
Respectfully, by entering a debate here - between hobbiest users who are sharing ideas about how they enjoy these products - - you obviously invite and open the door for people to start bashing your products and making a crtique of what you are doing - - all of this I choose NOT to do
I have a very hard time restraining mylself from making my own personal observatiomns about your products - some of which are not very positive - - when you seem to feel free to swim about the forums like a shark biting on all these little vendors who are trying to tread water over in the shallow end of the pool
Just a suggestiion for your review
Any dyno tester who reads 210 wheel hp on a works brain flash, exhale and apiture equipped EVO - needs to either put down the crack pipe and get serious about adjusting the settings on the dyno - OR - they need a new and more "normal" treading dyno so the results have revlevance or meaning in the real world
Its like iF I came out with my own self defined unit of measurement - call it a Al - - if I went to home depo and asked for 20 AL's of wood - they would stare at me in disbelief and ask if i wanted 20 inches or feet - - "no sir - I want 20 Al's - I am much more techically advanced that you all who use inches or feet to measure wood" - "My unit of measure reads much more accurately - the inch is overrated"
"Just devide your feet - the commonly used agreeed upon standard by 1.156678263 and you will come to 1 Al"
BTW - any one who tries to sell any products in competition against ME or says that they can make ANY HP at all is wrong - I am the only vendor who can make HP on an EVO - - - even though all the other vednors EVO's are going much faster on the track then mine - its cuase they all hook up a methane induction pipe from their spinkter to the aitr pipe - - - - even though even a trained monkey could raise the HP 10 % on the evo just by leaning out the a/f ratio- - - I am the great Al and NO ONE except me can get a EVO to make any hp !!!!!! There is NO other way to go but to but MY big Al tuning box - I know everything - everything else sucks
When I measure my compeditor's cars by Al's - they acvtually measure like 3 Al's short - isint that odd?
My products are the only choice in EVO performance and anyone who dosent use them is risking cataspropic engine failure and the invalidation of their warranty - - not to mention a really nasty CEL
Its like iF I came out with my own self defined unit of measurement - call it a Al - - if I went to home depo and asked for 20 AL's of wood - they would stare at me in disbelief and ask if i wanted 20 inches or feet - - "no sir - I want 20 Al's - I am much more techically advanced that you all who use inches or feet to measure wood" - "My unit of measure reads much more accurately - the inch is overrated"
"Just devide your feet - the commonly used agreeed upon standard by 1.156678263 and you will come to 1 Al"
BTW - any one who tries to sell any products in competition against ME or says that they can make ANY HP at all is wrong - I am the only vendor who can make HP on an EVO - - - even though all the other vednors EVO's are going much faster on the track then mine - its cuase they all hook up a methane induction pipe from their spinkter to the aitr pipe - - - - even though even a trained monkey could raise the HP 10 % on the evo just by leaning out the a/f ratio- - - I am the great Al and NO ONE except me can get a EVO to make any hp !!!!!! There is NO other way to go but to but MY big Al tuning box - I know everything - everything else sucks
When I measure my compeditor's cars by Al's - they acvtually measure like 3 Al's short - isint that odd?
My products are the only choice in EVO performance and anyone who dosent use them is risking cataspropic engine failure and the invalidation of their warranty - - not to mention a really nasty CEL
Last edited by Alfriedesq; Aug 17, 2003 at 12:34 AM.
Originally posted by Thwack
For reference, when we did the dyno day at altered atmosphere a few months back, the average HP for a stock Evo was around 223. Mind you this was on a dry day of about 60 degrees or so. and ALL the stock Evos had the fule curve like the stock one shown here, all dropping off below 10 before the redline. My butt dyno has shown a loss of hp in the last month or so that its been hot as hell and humid as... as... I cant think of a good comparison, but extremely humid. I wouldnt doubt a stock evo dynoing at 210 nowdays. Everything seems kosher.
David, I'm extremely interested in your reflash. any ETA on the boost feature on it and any change in price?
For reference, when we did the dyno day at altered atmosphere a few months back, the average HP for a stock Evo was around 223. Mind you this was on a dry day of about 60 degrees or so. and ALL the stock Evos had the fule curve like the stock one shown here, all dropping off below 10 before the redline. My butt dyno has shown a loss of hp in the last month or so that its been hot as hell and humid as... as... I cant think of a good comparison, but extremely humid. I wouldnt doubt a stock evo dynoing at 210 nowdays. Everything seems kosher.
David, I'm extremely interested in your reflash. any ETA on the boost feature on it and any change in price?
Al- You have somehow captured the essence of truth in a way in which only you can! An Al classic for sure!
Thats not a slam BTW- I agree with you.......its just funny as hell!
N10S
Thats not a slam BTW- I agree with you.......its just funny as hell!
N10S
In Timeout
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As much as I give you **** for talking non-stop about your car this is some funny stuff. You are right and when is the US going to the Metric system again. 
I wish we could have a apples to apples deal and if "MOST" dynos read close or you use the same dyno it does not matter. Hell the only real way is a motor dyno anyway. I think everyone should post what THEY are making compared to everyone else not what my dyno x1.21 gigawats is close to that xPie LOL
I wish we could have a apples to apples deal and if "MOST" dynos read close or you use the same dyno it does not matter. Hell the only real way is a motor dyno anyway. I think everyone should post what THEY are making compared to everyone else not what my dyno x1.21 gigawats is close to that xPie LOL
Originally posted by Alfriedesq
Any dyno tester who reads 210 wheel hp on a works brain flash, exhale and apiture equipped EVO - needs to either put down the crack pipe and get serious about adjusting the settings on the dyno - OR - they need a new and more "normal" treading dyno so the results have revlevance or meaning in the real world
Its like iF I came out with my own self defined unit of measurement - call it a Al - - if I went to home depo and asked for 20 AL's of wood - they would stare at me in disbelief and ask if i wanted 20 inches or feet - - "no sir - I want 20 Al's - I am much more techically advanced that you all who use inches or feet to measure wood" - "My unit of measure reads much more accurately - the inch is overrated"
"Just devide your feet - the commonly used agreeed upon standard by 1.156678263 and you will come to 1 Al"
BTW - any one who tries to sell any products in competition against ME or says that they can make ANY HP at all is wrong - I am the only vendor who can make HP on an EVO - - - even though all the other vednors EVO's are going much faster on the track then mine - its cuase they all hook up a methane induction pipe from their spinkter to the aitr pipe - - - - even though even a trained monkey could raise the HP 10 % on the evo just by leaning out the a/f ratio- - - I am the great Al and NO ONE except me can get a EVO to make any hp !!!!!! There is NO other way to go but to but MY big Al tuning box - I know everything - everything else sucks
When I measure my compeditor's cars by Al's - they acvtually measure like 3 Al's short - isint that odd?
My products are the only choice in EVO performance and anyone who dosent use them is risking cataspropic engine failure and the invalidation of their warranty - - not to mention a really nasty CEL
Any dyno tester who reads 210 wheel hp on a works brain flash, exhale and apiture equipped EVO - needs to either put down the crack pipe and get serious about adjusting the settings on the dyno - OR - they need a new and more "normal" treading dyno so the results have revlevance or meaning in the real world
Its like iF I came out with my own self defined unit of measurement - call it a Al - - if I went to home depo and asked for 20 AL's of wood - they would stare at me in disbelief and ask if i wanted 20 inches or feet - - "no sir - I want 20 Al's - I am much more techically advanced that you all who use inches or feet to measure wood" - "My unit of measure reads much more accurately - the inch is overrated"
"Just devide your feet - the commonly used agreeed upon standard by 1.156678263 and you will come to 1 Al"
BTW - any one who tries to sell any products in competition against ME or says that they can make ANY HP at all is wrong - I am the only vendor who can make HP on an EVO - - - even though all the other vednors EVO's are going much faster on the track then mine - its cuase they all hook up a methane induction pipe from their spinkter to the aitr pipe - - - - even though even a trained monkey could raise the HP 10 % on the evo just by leaning out the a/f ratio- - - I am the great Al and NO ONE except me can get a EVO to make any hp !!!!!! There is NO other way to go but to but MY big Al tuning box - I know everything - everything else sucks
When I measure my compeditor's cars by Al's - they acvtually measure like 3 Al's short - isint that odd?
My products are the only choice in EVO performance and anyone who dosent use them is risking cataspropic engine failure and the invalidation of their warranty - - not to mention a really nasty CEL
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From: Sarasota
Originally posted by shiv@vishnu
As mentioned in other posts in other threads by other people, most stock EVOs make around 225-230 wheel hp on AWD dynojets. This is a fact and i cannot change it. FWIW, at the last dyno day at Altered Atmosphere, there was one stock EVO which made, IIRC, 240 wheel hp. Of course, there was another one that made 212 wheel hp. But these, when compared to most other dyno results in the sample pool, are outliners. You can do a search and find the thread with all the scanned dyno results (and there were a lot of them).
Also, you can divide AWD Dynojet numbers by approx 1.15 and you'll get something awfully close to AWD Dyno Dynamics dyno numbers. And yes, this correlates quite nicely with our dyno sample pool, outliners and all.
Just my 2c,
Shiv
As mentioned in other posts in other threads by other people, most stock EVOs make around 225-230 wheel hp on AWD dynojets. This is a fact and i cannot change it. FWIW, at the last dyno day at Altered Atmosphere, there was one stock EVO which made, IIRC, 240 wheel hp. Of course, there was another one that made 212 wheel hp. But these, when compared to most other dyno results in the sample pool, are outliners. You can do a search and find the thread with all the scanned dyno results (and there were a lot of them).
Also, you can divide AWD Dynojet numbers by approx 1.15 and you'll get something awfully close to AWD Dyno Dynamics dyno numbers. And yes, this correlates quite nicely with our dyno sample pool, outliners and all.
Just my 2c,
Shiv
First thing first ... I do not intend to sound nasty, but I am fully aware of what a stock evo typically puts down .... whether it be a dynojet, dynopack, or your dynodynamics ... and I also understand that there are going to be outliners (cars that dyno much more or less then average), but you made a claim that an evo dynoed (on your dynodynamics) at 197 whp (if I remember correctly), and then with all of the works mods (incl. Aperture TB, flash, and Exhale axle back exhaust), the car only improved to 210 whp. Now once again, I'm fully aware that this 210 translates into 240 whp on a dynojet, but why such a small gain Shiv?
That's funny, I've seen the same mods show over 30 whp improvement on a dynopack, so maybe one needs to question the validity of your conclusion? So I ask u .... to 'please' elaborate further (without dodging my point this time) as to 'why' you feel that the Works mods made such little improvement on your dyno? 
The Works modified car was never baselined at Vishnu as far as I know. Other people just started comparing the baseline of other typical Evos to the Works one.
I would wager to say there is something else wrong with the Works modified Evo, which resulted in the lower than normal numbers.
Also, I don't see a problem with vendors being involved in technical discussions. I would love to have Vishnu, Works, Turbo XS, Buschur, etc all involved.
Mark
I would wager to say there is something else wrong with the Works modified Evo, which resulted in the lower than normal numbers.
Also, I don't see a problem with vendors being involved in technical discussions. I would love to have Vishnu, Works, Turbo XS, Buschur, etc all involved.
Mark
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally posted by evo1
...I am fully aware of what a stock evo typically puts down .... whether it be a dynojet, dynopack, or your dynodynamics ... and I also understand that there are going to be outliners (cars that dyno much more or less then average), but you made a claim that an evo dynoed (on your dynodynamics) at 197 whp (if I remember correctly), and then with all of the works mods (incl. Aperture TB, flash, and Exhale axle back exhaust), the car only improved to 210 whp. Now once again, I'm fully aware that this 210 translates into 240 whp on a dynojet, but why such a small gain Shiv? That's funny, I've seen the same mods show over 30 whp improvement on a dynopack, so maybe one needs to question the validity of your conclusion? So I ask u .... to 'please' elaborate further (without dodging my point this time) as to 'why' you feel that the Works mods made such little improvement on your dyno?
...I am fully aware of what a stock evo typically puts down .... whether it be a dynojet, dynopack, or your dynodynamics ... and I also understand that there are going to be outliners (cars that dyno much more or less then average), but you made a claim that an evo dynoed (on your dynodynamics) at 197 whp (if I remember correctly), and then with all of the works mods (incl. Aperture TB, flash, and Exhale axle back exhaust), the car only improved to 210 whp. Now once again, I'm fully aware that this 210 translates into 240 whp on a dynojet, but why such a small gain Shiv?
That's funny, I've seen the same mods show over 30 whp improvement on a dynopack, so maybe one needs to question the validity of your conclusion? So I ask u .... to 'please' elaborate further (without dodging my point this time) as to 'why' you feel that the Works mods made such little improvement on your dyno?
Also, I'm in no position to answer why a car that we have never tuned or touched made the gains it did on either dyno. That's none of my business.
But if you want to see for yourself what other stock and modded EVOs have made at Altered Atmosphere, check out:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...threadid=24551
Or just call up Pruven, Altered Atmosphere or HKS and ask them what typical numbers they see for stock EVOs on their AWD Dynojets. Take me completely out of the equation and do your own homework instead of questioning the homework done by others. As far as I can tell, the numbers match up quite well.
Also, as KK and others have already pointed out, both dyno sheet (comparing stock to modifed) compare one stock car to another modified car. Judging by the variance we have all seen between different stock EVOs, this is not a cogent approach to making claims on actual gains.
my 2c again,
Shiv
Last edited by shiv@vishnu; Aug 17, 2003 at 10:53 AM.
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From: Sarasota
Originally posted by KK
The Works modified car was never baselined at Vishnu as far as I know. Other people just started comparing the baseline of other typical Evos to the Works one.
I would wager to say there is something else wrong with the Works modified Evo, which resulted in the lower than normal numbers. Mark
The Works modified car was never baselined at Vishnu as far as I know. Other people just started comparing the baseline of other typical Evos to the Works one.
I would wager to say there is something else wrong with the Works modified Evo, which resulted in the lower than normal numbers. Mark
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally posted by evo1
Mark ... thanks for the info. I was under the impression that the Works car baselined at 197 whp on the dynodynmaica ... Shiv never mentioned that. Since most evio's dyno between 190-205 whp on a dynodyamics, I questioned the validity of only a 10 whp gain with the Works mods, espcially since I have seen with my 2 eyes, a 33 whp gain with the same mods on a dynopack.
Mark ... thanks for the info. I was under the impression that the Works car baselined at 197 whp on the dynodynmaica ... Shiv never mentioned that. Since most evio's dyno between 190-205 whp on a dynodyamics, I questioned the validity of only a 10 whp gain with the Works mods, espcially since I have seen with my 2 eyes, a 33 whp gain with the same mods on a dynopack.
shiv
Last edited by shiv@vishnu; Aug 17, 2003 at 11:08 AM.
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From: Sarasota
Originally posted by shiv@vishnu
I have no idea why you are reacting the way you are. And I have no idea why you think I've dodged your point, which I fail to completely understand in the first place. This is the situation as I understand it: A modified EVO makes 238 wheel hp at Altered Atmosphere (which is 6-7% higher than most stock EVOs as tested on the same dyno) and another similiarly modified EVO makes 210 wheel hp on our dyno (which, again is 6-7% higher than most stock EVOs as tested on the same dyno) and you question the validity of only one of the two results, alluding to some trickery on my part. Am I misinterpreting the situation?
Also, I'm in no position to answer why a car that we have never tuned or touched made the gains it did on either dyno. That's none of my business.
But if you want to see for yourself what other stock and modded EVOs have made at Altered Atmosphere, check out:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...threadid=24551
Or just call up Pruven, Altered Atmosphere or HKS and ask them what typical numbers they see for stock EVOs on their AWD Dynojets. Take me completely out of the equation and do your own homework instead of questioning the homework done by others. As far as I can tell, the numbers match up quite well.
FWIW, stock WRXs make 160-165 wheel hp on Dyno Dynamics dynos, both in the US and worldwide. There are several thousand Suby owners that can back up that claim so please don't just take my word for it.
my 2c again,
Shiv
I have no idea why you are reacting the way you are. And I have no idea why you think I've dodged your point, which I fail to completely understand in the first place. This is the situation as I understand it: A modified EVO makes 238 wheel hp at Altered Atmosphere (which is 6-7% higher than most stock EVOs as tested on the same dyno) and another similiarly modified EVO makes 210 wheel hp on our dyno (which, again is 6-7% higher than most stock EVOs as tested on the same dyno) and you question the validity of only one of the two results, alluding to some trickery on my part. Am I misinterpreting the situation?
Also, I'm in no position to answer why a car that we have never tuned or touched made the gains it did on either dyno. That's none of my business.
But if you want to see for yourself what other stock and modded EVOs have made at Altered Atmosphere, check out:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...threadid=24551
Or just call up Pruven, Altered Atmosphere or HKS and ask them what typical numbers they see for stock EVOs on their AWD Dynojets. Take me completely out of the equation and do your own homework instead of questioning the homework done by others. As far as I can tell, the numbers match up quite well.
FWIW, stock WRXs make 160-165 wheel hp on Dyno Dynamics dynos, both in the US and worldwide. There are several thousand Suby owners that can back up that claim so please don't just take my word for it.
my 2c again,
Shiv
Shiv, there is no need for me to call anyone at this time ... AS I STATED, AND AS YOU STILL DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND, I am fully aware of what evo's typically put down on a dyno ... as well as the different variations between each brand dyno.
Now, in regard to the Works modified evo, did u get a 'stock' baseline run on your dynodynamics dyno, or not? if you didn't get a baseline pull on your dynodymanics before the 210 whp pull, then why did you even post the results on this board?
Because it was VERY misleading Shiv. 
Shiv, by doing this, it 'looked' as if were trying to get people to believe that the Works mods only yield a very small whp improvement over stock, since MOST OF US ARE FULLY AWARE that stock evo's typically pull 200 whp on your dynodynamics, and you publicized the Works car at 210 whp.
So .......... as constructive critism, you may want to think about being a little more clear the next time. Maybe you could state that the car was never baselined on your dyno, or you could have compared it to another car with Works mods to ensure accuracy. Nevertheless, by doing what you did .... you only presented yourself as 'shady,' since it appears that you are attemting to have people 'read between the lines,' in a subliminal way.