Ams vs Brad Penn oil
I commented on your thread on COEVC (I'm WANTED there), but my AMSOIL 20w50 did in fact do the same thing under similar conditions. I had left the oil sitting unchanged over winter after the car ran rich on E85 and it completely turned to jello.
There was a claim thrown out before that it would not do this, but that is absolutely not the case nor by any means true. Given enough time and enough ethanol will turn any oil to Jello. I have not changed from running AMSOIL because of this nor do I have any intention of doing so. However, I always recommend to people running e85 to check and change their oil often.
I do not run anything but full synthetic in any of my motor vehicles by preference regardless of recommendation. I'm of the school of thought that you run what you intend to run and get your motor used to that. That being said though, I do recommend Brad Penn, AMSOIL, and Joe Gibbs to guys looking to make any reasonable amount of power and want their build to last. If someone is bound and determined to run CRAP in their engine, that's their prerogative but it's also their engine.
There was a claim thrown out before that it would not do this, but that is absolutely not the case nor by any means true. Given enough time and enough ethanol will turn any oil to Jello. I have not changed from running AMSOIL because of this nor do I have any intention of doing so. However, I always recommend to people running e85 to check and change their oil often.
I do not run anything but full synthetic in any of my motor vehicles by preference regardless of recommendation. I'm of the school of thought that you run what you intend to run and get your motor used to that. That being said though, I do recommend Brad Penn, AMSOIL, and Joe Gibbs to guys looking to make any reasonable amount of power and want their build to last. If someone is bound and determined to run CRAP in their engine, that's their prerogative but it's also their engine.
I did some more research on Mobil1 15w-50 and just found their newer SN approved oil sucks and confirmed it with VOA's of both SM and SN. I was pretty bummed. So scratch what I said about the Mobil1 15w-50. I have two jugs of 15w-50 SM I'm going to use up and then I'll be changing to something else.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/42484...tor+Oil+Alert+!!!
Motor Oil Alert !!!
July 8 2011 at 11:53 PM Paul (no login)
The times are a changing!
What was yesterday is NO MORE.
During the last few short years things have changed, and they have changed a lot.
The news SN oil standard has been adopted and it is being phased into ALL the auto parts outlets near you now. SN is the new designation that limits the ZDDP additive to somewhere in the 800 range when it used to be 1200 to 1600. In short, ZDDP is the element that keeps our solid lifter motors that have a lot of metal to metal contact well lubricated.
Two things have happned: most engines now use roller lifters and cams, so they don't have all the metal to metal contact to deal with, and secondarily, we now have catalytic converters that seem to be taking a precedence (the new SN designation is lower in zinc and phosporous to keep from wearing out catalytic converters so fast, and as we all know...........drumroll please....................we don't have any stinkin catalytic converters on our boats but we darn sure have solid lifter and tappet cams.
I have long been tracking the changes in my favorite Mobil-1 15W50 oil. It is not what it used to be due to the new SN designation limiting the key additives we relied upon in the past.
This evening I looked at a Penzoil 10W40 oil that had a good looking spec, SM designated. Then I moved over the the 5 quart bucket and was surprised to see the spec on that container was different than the quart container. The bucket said SN and the quart said SM. Therefore the quart had more ZDDP content and it was for sale at $4.99 per quart. The 5 qt bucket price was $4 per quart.
I showed the store manager that the 10W40 Pennzoil was a different spec depending on the can you selected, and we even found some new quart cans that also had the new SN designation.
I think the very same thing is happening to Mobil-1 as I have a 15W50 container here a the house with SM designatiion but the ones in the store were all SN (with less ZDDP)
In fact during a multi store search that took hours, there were only a few oils I found that I would even buy, including the Rotella 15W40 and Pennzoil High Milage 10W40 that had the SM designation. Some would "meet" requirements and some would "exceed" requirmenets.
Therefore it is apparant that we need to toss out all of our old oil threads and tech papers because they are now obsolete, and getting more so by the day.
It is looking more and more like we'll need to be adding additives or buying some racing oil products that have an abundance of ZDDP, for fear of getting some crap that will wipe off our cam lobes due to not having the old style additives.
In searching store to store I did find some very interesting price variations, and with twin engines it can add up fast. A full report will be forthcoming, but I wanted to post this heads up note letting everyone know the products on the shelfs now are different depending on which can you pick up, the old stuff is still there in diminishing quantities and the new stuff is coming in by the truckload. The SN grade oils are inappropriate for our use.
July 8 2011 at 11:53 PM Paul (no login)
The times are a changing!
What was yesterday is NO MORE.
During the last few short years things have changed, and they have changed a lot.
The news SN oil standard has been adopted and it is being phased into ALL the auto parts outlets near you now. SN is the new designation that limits the ZDDP additive to somewhere in the 800 range when it used to be 1200 to 1600. In short, ZDDP is the element that keeps our solid lifter motors that have a lot of metal to metal contact well lubricated.
Two things have happned: most engines now use roller lifters and cams, so they don't have all the metal to metal contact to deal with, and secondarily, we now have catalytic converters that seem to be taking a precedence (the new SN designation is lower in zinc and phosporous to keep from wearing out catalytic converters so fast, and as we all know...........drumroll please....................we don't have any stinkin catalytic converters on our boats but we darn sure have solid lifter and tappet cams.
I have long been tracking the changes in my favorite Mobil-1 15W50 oil. It is not what it used to be due to the new SN designation limiting the key additives we relied upon in the past.
This evening I looked at a Penzoil 10W40 oil that had a good looking spec, SM designated. Then I moved over the the 5 quart bucket and was surprised to see the spec on that container was different than the quart container. The bucket said SN and the quart said SM. Therefore the quart had more ZDDP content and it was for sale at $4.99 per quart. The 5 qt bucket price was $4 per quart.
I showed the store manager that the 10W40 Pennzoil was a different spec depending on the can you selected, and we even found some new quart cans that also had the new SN designation.
I think the very same thing is happening to Mobil-1 as I have a 15W50 container here a the house with SM designatiion but the ones in the store were all SN (with less ZDDP)
In fact during a multi store search that took hours, there were only a few oils I found that I would even buy, including the Rotella 15W40 and Pennzoil High Milage 10W40 that had the SM designation. Some would "meet" requirements and some would "exceed" requirmenets.
Therefore it is apparant that we need to toss out all of our old oil threads and tech papers because they are now obsolete, and getting more so by the day.
It is looking more and more like we'll need to be adding additives or buying some racing oil products that have an abundance of ZDDP, for fear of getting some crap that will wipe off our cam lobes due to not having the old style additives.
In searching store to store I did find some very interesting price variations, and with twin engines it can add up fast. A full report will be forthcoming, but I wanted to post this heads up note letting everyone know the products on the shelfs now are different depending on which can you pick up, the old stuff is still there in diminishing quantities and the new stuff is coming in by the truckload. The SN grade oils are inappropriate for our use.
I forgot you had the same issue with Amsoil. I think as long as you change it every 3 months sitting over winter you should be okay.
I did some more research on Mobil1 15w-50 and just found their newer SN approved oil sucks and confirmed it with VOA's of both SM and SN. I was pretty bummed. So scratch what I said about the Mobil1 15w-50. I have two jugs of 15w-50 SM I'm going to use up and then I'll be changing to something else.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/42484...tor+Oil+Alert+!!!
I did some more research on Mobil1 15w-50 and just found their newer SN approved oil sucks and confirmed it with VOA's of both SM and SN. I was pretty bummed. So scratch what I said about the Mobil1 15w-50. I have two jugs of 15w-50 SM I'm going to use up and then I'll be changing to something else.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/42484...tor+Oil+Alert+!!!
I would not put a whole lot of faith into Blackstones zinc/phos findings as they have been low in the past..
http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx
There is some misinformation there. It's the ILSAC rating that limits zinc/phos, not the SM/SN rating. The current chart for Mobil1 15W-50 shows zinc at 1300 and phos at 1200. You're good to go. (My conventional VR1 is the same, it's also SM/SN rated)
I would not put a whole lot of faith into Blackstones zinc/phos findings as they have been low in the past..
http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx
I would not put a whole lot of faith into Blackstones zinc/phos findings as they have been low in the past..
http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx
And here's the older SM formula-
See the difference!
Even the moly is much lower. Moly also helps your engine which is not mentioned here.
Last edited by rodent; Jan 26, 2012 at 10:12 PM.
I always thought it was the ILSAC ratings but after seeing the VOA's, its got me thinking to switch to a different oil. Mobil1 needs to update that chart. Here's a real VOA of the newer SN 15w-50 oil-
See the difference! Even the moly is much lower. Moly also helps your engine which is not mentioned here.
See the difference!
Even the moly is much lower. Moly also helps your engine which is not mentioned here.I also would not count out the fact that maybe the additives may of 'fallen out' of the SN sample (bottle should of been shook before sample sent). Mobil has always been good on the phone, it'd be worth to call them and ask.
Here is my UOA on Amsoil RD30 after one track day of driving the car 8/10ths all day and 1000 miles of dd. The car did not get much of a rest between sessions as there was a co driver that day, although he was a novice and he wasnt too hard on the car. We each ran the car for 4 sessions, so the engine was pushed for a total of 8 sessions at 20 min.
Last edited by TommiM; Jan 30, 2012 at 06:15 PM.
I would like to hear what the so called "experts" opinions are of what are acceptable zddp levels?
There is a ton of variation in the zddp levels of approved FP oils. Some of which the specs aren't even listed.
I too was looking in to the M1 15w50, and while the zddp levels have been reduced is the amount of reduction a deal breaker for using this oil? The current levels of zddp aren't that far out of line with what is listed for Redline on FP's approved oil list.
On another note, what change intervals are the E85 users in here using? I'm changing my oil at around 1500. I'm currently running Rotella T6 on my 2.3 stroker since its winter time. I run 20w50 in the summer. I was running Amsoil, but I have a hard time justifying the price (that keeps going up) when I change my oil so often. Maybe I'm changing it to often? That's why I'm looking for some feedback.
There is a ton of variation in the zddp levels of approved FP oils. Some of which the specs aren't even listed.
I too was looking in to the M1 15w50, and while the zddp levels have been reduced is the amount of reduction a deal breaker for using this oil? The current levels of zddp aren't that far out of line with what is listed for Redline on FP's approved oil list.
On another note, what change intervals are the E85 users in here using? I'm changing my oil at around 1500. I'm currently running Rotella T6 on my 2.3 stroker since its winter time. I run 20w50 in the summer. I was running Amsoil, but I have a hard time justifying the price (that keeps going up) when I change my oil so often. Maybe I'm changing it to often? That's why I'm looking for some feedback.
I would like to hear what the so called "experts" opinions are of what are acceptable zddp levels?
There is a ton of variation in the zddp levels of approved FP oils. Some of which the specs aren't even listed.
I too was looking in to the M1 15w50, and while the zddp levels have been reduced is the amount of reduction a deal breaker for using this oil? The current levels of zddp aren't that far out of line with what is listed for Redline on FP's approved oil list.
On another note, what change intervals are the E85 users in here using? I'm changing my oil at around 1500. I'm currently running Rotella T6 on my 2.3 stroker since its winter time. I run 20w50 in the summer. I was running Amsoil, but I have a hard time justifying the price (that keeps going up) when I change my oil so often. Maybe I'm changing it to often? That's why I'm looking for some feedback.
There is a ton of variation in the zddp levels of approved FP oils. Some of which the specs aren't even listed.
I too was looking in to the M1 15w50, and while the zddp levels have been reduced is the amount of reduction a deal breaker for using this oil? The current levels of zddp aren't that far out of line with what is listed for Redline on FP's approved oil list.
On another note, what change intervals are the E85 users in here using? I'm changing my oil at around 1500. I'm currently running Rotella T6 on my 2.3 stroker since its winter time. I run 20w50 in the summer. I was running Amsoil, but I have a hard time justifying the price (that keeps going up) when I change my oil so often. Maybe I'm changing it to often? That's why I'm looking for some feedback.
Still those zddp levels in the amsoil 10w30 are way less then what is in the Mobil 1 15w50 new formula.
I would still like some feedback as to what are acceptable or appropriate levels of zddp for our turbo charged engines. After all of this debate someone should have some kind of answers of knowledge on this subject.
Thanks for the info. Looking at the UOA the Amsoil ASM 10w30 has about half as much zddp in it than the RD30, but it has more miles though as well.
Still those zddp levels in the amsoil 10w30 are way less then what is in the Mobil 1 15w50 new formula.
I would still like some feedback as to what are acceptable or appropriate levels of zddp for our turbo charged engines. After all of this debate someone should have some kind of answers of knowledge on this subject.
Still those zddp levels in the amsoil 10w30 are way less then what is in the Mobil 1 15w50 new formula.
I would still like some feedback as to what are acceptable or appropriate levels of zddp for our turbo charged engines. After all of this debate someone should have some kind of answers of knowledge on this subject.
I always get those letters mixed up, it was actually Amsoil ATM not ASM.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx
Just wanted to clarfiy to make sure were talking about the same one.
You're running E85? What oil and do you have any UOAs?
Oh, ok. Thanks for the heads up.
I always get those letters mixed up, it was actually Amsoil ATM not ASM.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx
Just wanted to clarfiy to make sure were talking about the same one.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx
Just wanted to clarfiy to make sure were talking about the same one.
I have some info on this now as well. Today I finally got around to changeing my oil being I am about 10k over where I usually change it and the oil was fine. No sludge no nothing and I do drive the car hard being there was alot of tuning involved. Came out pretty dirty and what nots but no clumps, no soupy look nothing and yes it was Brad Penn oil 10w30
Evolved Member
iTrader: (33)
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,313
Likes: 1
From: Raleigh, Transplanted from Toronto, Canada
To be fair i have never done a UOA of the oil coming out of the car but I;ve ran E85 for the last 2 years and not had a problem (even running up to 1 to 2k over 3k oil change interval).
I have 2 oil catch cans now and change the oil religiously on time and been good so far. Next oil change I'll send a sample out.
I have 2 oil catch cans now and change the oil religiously on time and been good so far. Next oil change I'll send a sample out.