Can't wait to see them all released.

 

If you look at the kit that Forge Motorsports copied and is now calling their newest development project, I see why people would hesitate to show what they have come up with. It's not very difficult to simply copy the work of someone else. As an engineer it drives me nuts to see people make a cheep copy and peddle it as their own. I looked at the Forge website and it looks like they have some good equipment and an extensive product line. Why they would just take a competitors product and copy it is something I don't understand. (Maybe they have an agreement with their UK competitor that allows sharing of engineering data and product designs). It's not rocket science but it is an interesting problem and I can't wait to see what creative designers can come up with.

P.S. Sorry to make my first post on this board negative. I've been in to cars for over 30 years and I am amazed by the power this new breed of smart cars can make.

 

I agree, if it's pre-production or whatever. But, once it hits the market anyone can reverse engineer it. ANd again, it's a friggin' brake duct, it's not that complicated. Something that requires intricate engineering, R&D, machining, tooling, whatever, that I can see.

I agree in general though that it's a ****ty situation to have someone R&D an innovative product and have another company simply copy it (I'm not saying that is the case here, I have no idea).

 

When going into the develpment of our kit, we felt that Power Engineering had a very solid design idea, but in it's advertised state, it seems as though it would not have fit properly. Clearance issues seemed abundant.

We did not have any PE product on hand to disect or "reverse engineer" when making our own version. We used a similar design criteria, yes, but our own measurements, materials, and processes.

We never claimed to come up with a brilliant new idea. I stated from the very beginning that our product would be similar to that of Power Engineering's, and it is, yet holding the two side by side will show very different end results.

The pictures I have posted of our product thus far are the pre-production units, and since taking the time to test fit them to my own car and ready them for production, the shape of the units has changed dramatically.

This will be apparent when the production kits are released.

I give all the credit in the world to any and all other companies who have undertaken the development and production of their own designs and/or products. That's what competition is all about.

I tried to present the facts about our product in the most honest and up front way. We feel that we can offer a highly competitive product at a very resonable price with the utmost of our care given to customer service before and after the sale.

If that happens to help anyone in their decision, all the better.

 

Power Engineering are fully aware of this project and have asked us to quote them on supply , we have worked closely with Power eng for over 7 years and do not wish to cause any problems

 

I'm in.

Where's the GB?

 

I was not trying to start an argument with you or with Forge Motorsports. I was simply agreeing with the position of RRE to not post photos of their solution on this site because they didn't want someone copying their development work before they had a chance to bring their product to market. The photos that appear on the Forge site look nearly identical to the Power Engineering kit. You say that you didn't have the PE parts on hand when developing your kit, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see your parts look nearly identical to theirs. This adds support to RRE's position. You are saying that by simply seeing the kit from PE you have developed your own improved kit that fits better and is less expensive than the original. That is what I believe the guys at RRE are trying to avoid. 'Reverse engineering' is just a nicer way of saying 'copy'. Even if the people at PE don't care that you are marketing a lower cost version of one of their products it still doesn’t make your product any less of a copy.
From reading your posts you seem like a pleasant person. If I have offended you please accept my apologies. I am only pointing out the facts as I see them. I am a mechanical engineer and I deal with these types of issues every day. We spend time and money developing products and shortly after we release them they are copied and offered at a fraction of the price. The price of a product includes the cost of development as well as the cost of manufacturing. Even though this happens all the time it still doesn’t make it right.

 

I can fully appreciate your opinion and I take no personal offense by it, but I just want to clarify that we are not in the business of copying other company's products, regardless of how similar of a situation this may seem to be.

In fact, many of our own products have been copied in the past and even very recently, and we are implementing some aesthetic and functional changes to many of our products in the hopes of detering this kind of activity in the future while still providing innovative products.

As a point of interest, however, the PE ducts are listed on their site as being applicable only for the Evo 5 and 6, which may account for some of the fitment concerns present on the CT9A chassis (Evo 7,8, and 9) of which I am not aware having never been underneath a previous generation Evo, and which may be the very thing which makes our version different entirely.

I want to stress, though, that while our initial prototype ducts look very similar to the PE units, we used nothing but our own measurements, pictures, and design and fitment requirements to construct these pieces, though we did use a design criteria following that of PE's original design.

I can appreciate RRE's position as well, as their design is probably sound in every aspect and they want to protect it, but I am, personally, not one to keep information hidden form the community that will probably effect their decision to purchase one product vs. another.

I think in this instance, timing played a big role in how this entire scenario was perceived. We (Forge, RRE, The Race Shop, etc.) seemed to be working on these projects at the same time, so that seems to have intensified the progress with which the kits were worked on and the perception of competition surrounding this product for this application.

I really appreciate everyone's input and comments, as they're all valid, and I think it's also good that companies like ourselves, RRE, The Race Shop, etc. are here to discuss these scenarios in a friendly environment and in a civil manner.

And as I mentioned before, this is the very deffinition of competition, so we habor no ill-will towards any other company for the presentation of their own products. I value the fact that customer will have a choice, and that they will enquire about what value our product may have over that of RRE or The Race Shop, but in this instance, unfortunately, I'll have to say "I don't know" because I haven't seen either, so that leaves it up to the customer to decide.

Again, I'm just trying to present the fact about our products in the hopes that people will educate themselves as to what is available in the marketplace and make an informed decision from there.

I fully understand the negative implications that our product is similar to PE's, and we willingly took that risk, but I would just hope that it's considered viable for it's own merits and the rest of our product range (of which we now have more products for the Evo than any other application we cater to) is not devalued in any way.

Thanks for reading my ramblings!

 

But, you know, that's a pretty revealing statement. Try to look at it from a non-engineer's perspective...say, a consumer standpoint or even a progression/improvement angle.

 

I don't want to pay top dollar for everything I buy. However, I do want the best most innovative products for my cars at the best price available. The best way to ensure that new parts are being developed is to purchase parts from the companies that develop them. If the companies developing these parts see that their products bring in a reasonable profit they will continue to develop new stuff. This thread started because someone was looking at a brake duct kit that they thought was over priced. I happen to agree with them; the kit as shown is way over priced. Then three other companies announced that they also have kits to accomplish the same basic function. Hopefully they will offer something better than what is currently available. If all anybody ever did was to copy the original then we would only have cheep copies of that original (maybe with a slightly better price) but we wouldn't have much of a choice. I don’t think it is right to rip-off people by over charging for products, but at the same time I don’t agree that copying somebody’s work and selling it at a lower price is good for the consumer. If somebody comes up with a good idea they should be able to sell it and make a reasonable profit for their effort. Consumers will ultimately determine what products make it and which ones don't. If you charge too much nobody will buy your stuff. If its too cheap, you will go broke. I don't mind paying a little more for quality if it means my car runs/looks better or stops quicker. So I think we agree, we want the best parts at the best price and we want new innovative parts to continue to be released. (Sorry to get on my soapbox).

 

Yeah I'm with ya for the most part, not trying to get you up on a soapbox.

It was just an interesting statement if ya think about it. I know this is pretty cliche anymore, but competition is a good thing. Knowing that another company can and will take your design/service and make it better and/or cheaper encourages the "creator" to make it right the first time, and market it competitively even when there may be no competition.

I'm in the same boat with my job. I'm a photographer at a popular road, and I knew eventually that others would come along and try to mimic what we do, and they have. So I started off with competitive pricing, built up a strong reputation, and now we just stay sharp, keep upgrading our equipment, and business is booming like never before. Those other guys make us look better than ever.

 

..

 

$585

 

That's a good amount of stuff for $585 when you consider the time spent developing. Go try to fit a 3" duct and tell us how long it takes to make something that can be easily reproduced.

 

i think this is a prime case of you get what you pay for. i'm interrested in seeing this kit. a well engineered complete kit is worth it. just my 2c