fixing the factory understeer
my goal is to try and balance the chassis a bit better.
i'm trying to move the car more towards a neutral attitude.
now, if i come into a corner and stay neutral with the throttle(i.e. no lift or increase) the car push's wide a bit.
if you drop throttle mid corner to try and get the chassis to rotate, you get some improvement but not much. and of course if you get on the power she'll push.
now if i can coax quicker turn in with a front bar(lowers ultimate grip, but it might be worth it) while lowering weight transfer(both fore/aft and laterally) with higher spring rates and the larger bars. then lessen the ultimate grip level of the rear along with another improvement to lessening weight transfer via a rear bar. I should end up with a car that will stay more neutral in handling Vs front wheel angle when the throttle input is kept neutral. she should not push as hard when on the power and really want to rotate if you drop throttle or tail brake.
the diff work is absolutely going to happen now that i can pull the car out of storage. after talking to the GTWORX guys, along with what you said. a few bushings, a set of springs, and a few anti-roll bars have been added to the mix.
i'm trying to move the car more towards a neutral attitude.
now, if i come into a corner and stay neutral with the throttle(i.e. no lift or increase) the car push's wide a bit.
if you drop throttle mid corner to try and get the chassis to rotate, you get some improvement but not much. and of course if you get on the power she'll push.
now if i can coax quicker turn in with a front bar(lowers ultimate grip, but it might be worth it) while lowering weight transfer(both fore/aft and laterally) with higher spring rates and the larger bars. then lessen the ultimate grip level of the rear along with another improvement to lessening weight transfer via a rear bar. I should end up with a car that will stay more neutral in handling Vs front wheel angle when the throttle input is kept neutral. she should not push as hard when on the power and really want to rotate if you drop throttle or tail brake.
the diff work is absolutely going to happen now that i can pull the car out of storage. after talking to the GTWORX guys, along with what you said. a few bushings, a set of springs, and a few anti-roll bars have been added to the mix.
Trail braking, left foot braking, slow-in fast-out, proper line. There are a lot of things you can do for free. As far as money goes, you can do an alignment. I have mine set up as -2 front camber, -1 to -1.5 rear camber and 0 toe at all four corners. I'm lucky because I do my own alignments. A rear sway bar will help adding some lift-throttle over steer. Annoying inner rear wheel lift around tight corners though....ugh, I hate it. Both sway bars is a better combo, it's just that front one is a ***** to install.
I like a front/rear sway bar combo. I went to the track with just a cusco rear swaybar and still noticed a lot of understeer from the front end. cusco front sway bar completely corrected any push. Also, I prefer a solid sway bar vs hollow swaybar
my goal is to try and balance the chassis a bit better.
i'm trying to move the car more towards a neutral attitude.
now, if i come into a corner and stay neutral with the throttle(i.e. no lift or increase) the car push's wide a bit.
if you drop throttle mid corner to try and get the chassis to rotate, you get some improvement but not much. and of course if you get on the power she'll push.
now if i can coax quicker turn in with a front bar(lowers ultimate grip, but it might be worth it) while lowering weight transfer(both fore/aft and laterally) with higher spring rates and the larger bars. then lessen the ultimate grip level of the rear along with another improvement to lessening weight transfer via a rear bar. I should end up with a car that will stay more neutral in handling Vs front wheel angle when the throttle input is kept neutral. she should not push as hard when on the power and really want to rotate if you drop throttle or tail brake.
the diff work is absolutely going to happen now that i can pull the car out of storage. after talking to the GTWORX guys, along with what you said. a few bushings, a set of springs, and a few anti-roll bars have been added to the mix.
i'm trying to move the car more towards a neutral attitude.
now, if i come into a corner and stay neutral with the throttle(i.e. no lift or increase) the car push's wide a bit.
if you drop throttle mid corner to try and get the chassis to rotate, you get some improvement but not much. and of course if you get on the power she'll push.
now if i can coax quicker turn in with a front bar(lowers ultimate grip, but it might be worth it) while lowering weight transfer(both fore/aft and laterally) with higher spring rates and the larger bars. then lessen the ultimate grip level of the rear along with another improvement to lessening weight transfer via a rear bar. I should end up with a car that will stay more neutral in handling Vs front wheel angle when the throttle input is kept neutral. she should not push as hard when on the power and really want to rotate if you drop throttle or tail brake.
the diff work is absolutely going to happen now that i can pull the car out of storage. after talking to the GTWORX guys, along with what you said. a few bushings, a set of springs, and a few anti-roll bars have been added to the mix.
in reality if you want to be fast you never want to be coasting/off the throttle, like you mentioned in one of your posts above. your right foot (or left if you LFB) should ALWAYS either be HARD on the brakes, rolling into the throttle or @ WOT... much easier said than done however.
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: The mitten
Thanks for all the input guys, all the personal experiences and such are what i was after.
In talking to Andrew at GTWORX i like the idea of the whiteline 26mm front/24mm rear bars(does any one know the material they use for them??) along with there street springs and matched valving in the OE bilsteins.
what, if any, bushings do people recommend replacing in these circumstances??
In talking to Andrew at GTWORX i like the idea of the whiteline 26mm front/24mm rear bars(does any one know the material they use for them??) along with there street springs and matched valving in the OE bilsteins.
what, if any, bushings do people recommend replacing in these circumstances??
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 142
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From: The mitten
if you're steady state on the throttle in a turn and the car is pushing you went in too hot or you have too much steering input. Try to unwind the wheel a bit and or go in slower and the car won't understeer as much. slow in fast out as they say.
in reality if you want to be fast you never want to be coasting/off the throttle, like you mentioned in one of your posts above. your right foot (or left if you LFB) should ALWAYS either be HARD on the brakes, rolling into the throttle or @ WOT... much easier said than done however.
in reality if you want to be fast you never want to be coasting/off the throttle, like you mentioned in one of your posts above. your right foot (or left if you LFB) should ALWAYS either be HARD on the brakes, rolling into the throttle or @ WOT... much easier said than done however.
that is why i'm looking to a chassis set up "issue"
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 142
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From: The mitten
The front bar increases weight transfer which can be a net loss in traction (read DG's autocross secrets for that one..) but reduces negative camber loss giving an overall traction increase. Also, the evo has quite a bit of roll increasing as tires get better so maximizing camber is extremely important for mid corner grip. But since its a street car, I would just stick to as much as you can get with stock upper hats.
kinda cool!
first off, please don't drive like an idiot on the street....
with that out of the way,
If you push on corner entry, you entered the corner too fast. Use those awesome brakes more effectively.
once you scrub off the speed from corner entry, yes the car will most likely hook up and gain traction until....
the boost hits on corner exit and you get wheel spin.
with minimal change in throttle/wheel angle.
that is why i'm looking to a chassis set up "issue"
99% of the problem you are describing is driver error, not the handling of the car. Ideally you should never be taking a corner at a "steady state".
with that out of the way,
but she seems to hook in with allot of grip
and then just lose it.
with minimal change in throttle/wheel angle.
that is why i'm looking to a chassis set up "issue"
99% of the problem you are describing is driver error, not the handling of the car. Ideally you should never be taking a corner at a "steady state".
if the car turned-in fine initially then you did something to cause it to push out mid corner. either you added gas too early (even a very little can make you understeer if the tires are already @ 100%) or adding more steering (maybe to try and hit the apex).
Andrew helped me with my setup and I have Re-valved bilsteins with gtworx springs and cusco camber plate / pillow ball mount
Its a great option but I'm going to move to ohlins in the next couple of weeks, PM me if you wanna get my setup off me
Sorry not trying to change the subject but just thought we could help each other out
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 142
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From: The mitten
first off, please don't drive like an idiot on the street....
with that out of the way,
If you push on corner entry, you entered the corner too fast. Use those awesome brakes more effectively.
this is not a corner entry issue, thus i doubt i'm entering with too much speed as there is plenty of grip initially.
once you scrub off the speed from corner entry, yes the car will most likely hook up and gain traction until....
the car is slowing down thru the corner, as i'm not adding throttle to counter act the turn, yet it starts to push.
the boost hits on corner exit and you get wheel spin.
99% of the problem you are describing is driver error, not the handling of the car. Ideally you should never be taking a corner at a "steady state".
with that out of the way,
If you push on corner entry, you entered the corner too fast. Use those awesome brakes more effectively.
this is not a corner entry issue, thus i doubt i'm entering with too much speed as there is plenty of grip initially.
once you scrub off the speed from corner entry, yes the car will most likely hook up and gain traction until....
the car is slowing down thru the corner, as i'm not adding throttle to counter act the turn, yet it starts to push.
the boost hits on corner exit and you get wheel spin.
99% of the problem you are describing is driver error, not the handling of the car. Ideally you should never be taking a corner at a "steady state".
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 142
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From: The mitten
i know i'm not 100% maintaining my inputs, but i cant imagine i'm this close to the limit in this car when my Cobalt ss takes these same few corners at the same speed with no real issue....until i apply any throttle that is...
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 142
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From: The mitten
when are you going to do all this?
Andrew helped me with my setup and I have Re-valved bilsteins with gtworx springs and cusco camber plate / pillow ball mount
Its a great option but I'm going to move to ohlins in the next couple of weeks, PM me if you wanna get my setup off me
Sorry not trying to change the subject but just thought we could help each other out
Andrew helped me with my setup and I have Re-valved bilsteins with gtworx springs and cusco camber plate / pillow ball mount
Its a great option but I'm going to move to ohlins in the next couple of weeks, PM me if you wanna get my setup off me
Sorry not trying to change the subject but just thought we could help each other out