Dyno4mance EcuTeK tuning on Noize's car. Results inside
Ok, someone explain what the small diameter pill does. I am going to guess that it is a bleed of some sort which simply slows the air down when trying to go from A to B, but what does it do and what makes it effective?
Thanks.
Thanks.
EvoKid and MR.Fred both have valid points. At the end of the day, the whole point is to reduce the volume of air the stock solenoids need to bleed to hit your target boost. This can be done either by reducing the orifice size of the turbo side restrictor or by putting a bleed in the line before the solenoids. Both accomplish the same thing though in different ways and will certainly require tuning the duty cycle and target tables to get the desired result.
The remaining questions at this time are:
1. How is the X load calc affected by temperature changes
2. Which headroom method works better, reduced orifice size or calibrated bleed.
I also want to make sure that potential customers understand that the EcuTek license is a one time fee. If we get updates or learn something new AFTER you get your initial tune, a re-tune would not be at full price, but would be based on the amount of time involved in the re-tune. For example, if you change intakes or add a down pipe and we just need to touch up the tune your looking at a minimal expense.
No reason to wait for ecuflash. EcuTek already has the tables. All I need is a customer that wants to try it. Noize is not a big fan of squeezing more boost out of the stock turbo.
EvoKid and MR.Fred both have valid points. At the end of the day, the whole point is to reduce the volume of air the stock solenoids need to bleed to hit your target boost. This can be done either by reducing the orifice size of the turbo side restrictor or by putting a bleed in the line before the solenoids. Both accomplish the same thing though in different ways and will certainly require tuning the duty cycle and target tables to get the desired result.
The remaining questions at this time are:
1. How is the X load calc affected by temperature changes
2. Which headroom method works better, reduced orifice size or calibrated bleed.
I also want to make sure that potential customers understand that the EcuTek license is a one time fee. If we get updates or learn something new AFTER you get your initial tune, a re-tune would not be at full price, but would be based on the amount of time involved in the re-tune. For example, if you change intakes or add a down pipe and we just need to touch up the tune your looking at a minimal expense.
EvoKid and MR.Fred both have valid points. At the end of the day, the whole point is to reduce the volume of air the stock solenoids need to bleed to hit your target boost. This can be done either by reducing the orifice size of the turbo side restrictor or by putting a bleed in the line before the solenoids. Both accomplish the same thing though in different ways and will certainly require tuning the duty cycle and target tables to get the desired result.
The remaining questions at this time are:
1. How is the X load calc affected by temperature changes
2. Which headroom method works better, reduced orifice size or calibrated bleed.
I also want to make sure that potential customers understand that the EcuTek license is a one time fee. If we get updates or learn something new AFTER you get your initial tune, a re-tune would not be at full price, but would be based on the amount of time involved in the re-tune. For example, if you change intakes or add a down pipe and we just need to touch up the tune your looking at a minimal expense.
What about flashing back to stock if you need warranty work done? Is that possible? And would it be able to be flashed back to stock program? And what about reinstalling the ECUTEK program? Would you have to pay another licensing fee?
Brian
That's good to know. My local place i go to is a DD too and they had offered the tail pipe AFR option, but I declined based on my previous experiences (usually theyre like 1 to 2.0 off)
Reinstalling the Tuned Rom ... let me double check with EcuTek, But I'm almost 100% certain that if we put back the tuned image (that already has the license associated) it would not consume another license.
Not pointing any fingers here guys, but please keep things civil and on topic.
On catted cars I have seen .2-.3 differences on spool, almost 1:1 after that until up top where I usually see the tailpipe slightly leaner than the downpipe wideband sensor.
It's pretty damn close either way, and if you know how slightly off it is up top, you can tune for that with the cars that don't have a wideband installed in the downpipe.
I have yet to see a tailpipe be even remotely close to 1-2.0 points off the downpipe wideband, at least on evos.
If you use a good tailpipe assembly (we use the innovate) and make sure there are no exhaust leaks, they should be pretty darn close.
However, I have not yet had the luxury of a Evo X with a downpipe wideband, and since the Evo X has dual exhaust outlets, it might be different.
Last edited by razorlab; Apr 28, 2008 at 11:39 AM.
Flashing back to stock... yes that is no problem
Reinstalling the Tuned Rom ... let me double check with EcuTek, But I'm almost 100% certain that if we put back the tuned image (that already has the license associated) it would not consume another license.
Not pointing any fingers here guys, but please keep things civil and on topic.
Reinstalling the Tuned Rom ... let me double check with EcuTek, But I'm almost 100% certain that if we put back the tuned image (that already has the license associated) it would not consume another license.
Not pointing any fingers here guys, but please keep things civil and on topic.
More testing to come. Ultimate Racing test pipe with mini muffler and downpipe on order.
No reason to wait for ecuflash. EcuTek already has the tables. All I need is a customer that wants to try it. Noize is not a big fan of squeezing more boost out of the stock turbo.
EvoKid and MR.Fred both have valid points. At the end of the day, the whole point is to reduce the volume of air the stock solenoids need to bleed to hit your target boost. This can be done either by reducing the orifice size of the turbo side restrictor or by putting a bleed in the line before the solenoids. Both accomplish the same thing though in different ways and will certainly require tuning the duty cycle and target tables to get the desired result.
The remaining questions at this time are:
1. How is the X load calc affected by temperature changes
2. Which headroom method works better, reduced orifice size or calibrated bleed.
I also want to make sure that potential customers understand that the EcuTek license is a one time fee. If we get updates or learn something new AFTER you get your initial tune, a re-tune would not be at full price, but would be based on the amount of time involved in the re-tune. For example, if you change intakes or add a down pipe and we just need to touch up the tune your looking at a minimal expense.
EvoKid and MR.Fred both have valid points. At the end of the day, the whole point is to reduce the volume of air the stock solenoids need to bleed to hit your target boost. This can be done either by reducing the orifice size of the turbo side restrictor or by putting a bleed in the line before the solenoids. Both accomplish the same thing though in different ways and will certainly require tuning the duty cycle and target tables to get the desired result.
The remaining questions at this time are:
1. How is the X load calc affected by temperature changes
2. Which headroom method works better, reduced orifice size or calibrated bleed.
I also want to make sure that potential customers understand that the EcuTek license is a one time fee. If we get updates or learn something new AFTER you get your initial tune, a re-tune would not be at full price, but would be based on the amount of time involved in the re-tune. For example, if you change intakes or add a down pipe and we just need to touch up the tune your looking at a minimal expense.
Just like with the VIII and IX, ECUtek always had access to the boost table, but even pro tuners didnt know how the stock boost system worked and how to tune it correctly. Not until we had ECUflash and me, razor and others were flashing our own ECUs 20+ times a day, did we start to figure out how the stock system worked. Then people started doing disassembly and finding new tables (THANKS MRfred, Tephra and others), making ECU controlled boost the best it has ever been.
Updates:
-ECU controlled boost working perfectly in temperatures varying from 39 degrees to 80 degrees so far. No spikes in fifth that aren't caught immediately by boost correction.
-Slight MPG improvement on highway this week (probably because the fueling is not so pig rich and I don't have to rev the snot out of the car to pass)
-Ultimate Racing DP and test pipe with mini muffler coming and will retune soon to see what a flashed car with a turbo-back will do.
-Partial throttle boost still perfect, no P1235 code ever since using ECU controlled boost.
I've driven the car quite a lot in this post-tuned state the past 5 days, including a 3 hour trip. I believe that any Evo X owner would benefit greatly from a tune.
-ECU controlled boost working perfectly in temperatures varying from 39 degrees to 80 degrees so far. No spikes in fifth that aren't caught immediately by boost correction.
-Slight MPG improvement on highway this week (probably because the fueling is not so pig rich and I don't have to rev the snot out of the car to pass)
-Ultimate Racing DP and test pipe with mini muffler coming and will retune soon to see what a flashed car with a turbo-back will do.
-Partial throttle boost still perfect, no P1235 code ever since using ECU controlled boost.
I've driven the car quite a lot in this post-tuned state the past 5 days, including a 3 hour trip. I believe that any Evo X owner would benefit greatly from a tune.
On our Mustang dyno which is using an innovate wideband in the tailpipe, on catless cars I see it 1:1 to a wideband sensor in the downpipe, up until about 6800 rpm or so where the tailpipe is reading slightly richer (.2-.3) than the downpipe wideband sensor.
On catted cars I have seen .2-.3 differences on spool, almost 1:1 after that until up top where I usually see the tailpipe slightly leaner than the downpipe wideband sensor.
It's pretty damn close either way, and if you know how slightly off it is up top, you can tune for that with the cars that don't have a wideband installed in the downpipe.
I have yet to see a tailpipe be even remotely close to 1-2.0 points off the downpipe wideband, at least on evos.
If you use a good tailpipe assembly (we use the innovate) and make sure there are no exhaust leaks, they should be pretty darn close.
However, I have not yet had the luxury of a Evo X with a downpipe wideband, and since the Evo X has dual exhaust outlets, it might be different.
On catted cars I have seen .2-.3 differences on spool, almost 1:1 after that until up top where I usually see the tailpipe slightly leaner than the downpipe wideband sensor.
It's pretty damn close either way, and if you know how slightly off it is up top, you can tune for that with the cars that don't have a wideband installed in the downpipe.
I have yet to see a tailpipe be even remotely close to 1-2.0 points off the downpipe wideband, at least on evos.
If you use a good tailpipe assembly (we use the innovate) and make sure there are no exhaust leaks, they should be pretty darn close.
However, I have not yet had the luxury of a Evo X with a downpipe wideband, and since the Evo X has dual exhaust outlets, it might be different.
innovate in the downpipe, and our innovate on our MD in the tip.... we were reading about .2 leaner from peak torque up...
cb
It is a balancing act...small pill at turbo ( #60 drill size ) and a #56 drill pill at BCS allows 24-27 psi. If you then take the BCS pill out, you can easily hit 30 psi ( not recommended ) crazy overboost . Putting a #60 at turbo with a #58 at BCS limits boost to 20-22 psi. This is because the pressure is diverted to the WGA and helps open it. You can use the WGDC to increase the bleed off and stabilize the boost more.
For example using a #58 turbo pill and a # 54 BCS pill you would start out at 10-20% WGDC at 2500 rpm and increase slowly to get peak boost. Make all cells same from 2500 up to 7500. If you hit 22 psi at say 40% duty cycle at 3500 and the boost tapers to 15 psi at 7000 , then increase the WGDC above 3500 to remove some of the taper. ie 50, 60, 70 , 80 , 90 100 going up to 7500 rpm.
For example using a #58 turbo pill and a # 54 BCS pill you would start out at 10-20% WGDC at 2500 rpm and increase slowly to get peak boost. Make all cells same from 2500 up to 7500. If you hit 22 psi at say 40% duty cycle at 3500 and the boost tapers to 15 psi at 7000 , then increase the WGDC above 3500 to remove some of the taper. ie 50, 60, 70 , 80 , 90 100 going up to 7500 rpm.
The pill to use is the #65 pill. All other pills are worthless. When I made a batch of pills I made a variety of numbers. In retrospect, it was a waste of money. Now I only make #65 pills. I should have relied on the WORKS size pill from the get go. WORKS did the basic R&D for all of us. They know what they are doing when it comes to the size of the pill to use.
I am willing to bet that they will also be the leaders in creating pills for the Evo X as well.
It is a very easy fix. The tables that mrfred discovered in the "ECU boost control mod" thread will help you fix it. You do not have to get spikes and have boost pulled when drag racing as you have mentioned. It is a very easy fix.
You keep the solenoid pill unchanged and you only change the pill by the turbo side.
The pill to use is the #65 pill. All other pills are worthless. When I made a batch of pills I made a variety of numbers. In retrospect, it was a waste of money. Now I only make #65 pills. I should have relied on the WORKS size pill from the get go. WORKS did the basic R&D for all of us. They know what they are doing when it comes to the size of the pill to use.
I am willing to bet that they will also be the leaders in creating pills for the Evo X as well.
The pill to use is the #65 pill. All other pills are worthless. When I made a batch of pills I made a variety of numbers. In retrospect, it was a waste of money. Now I only make #65 pills. I should have relied on the WORKS size pill from the get go. WORKS did the basic R&D for all of us. They know what they are doing when it comes to the size of the pill to use.
I am willing to bet that they will also be the leaders in creating pills for the Evo X as well.
Im just over ECU boost control for now. Im tired of having to do all the boost control mods and the time that it takes to "tune" ECU boost control. Ill just rather throw a MBC on. You can make the same power with a couple psi less up top. Plus I have tricks to make MBCs hold rather well.
But I do believe that ECU boost control on the X will be better due to the twin solenoid setup.
Last edited by Evo_Jay; Apr 30, 2008 at 01:20 PM.
We are taking our time on tuning the X.
However if the X works with the normal pills we have been using on the 8/9's then we already have about 1,000 of them.
The funny thing about the workz pill is that I specifically stayed away from even looking at the pill they used when I was trying to find the "right" size pill for the 8/9's. Sometimes I am stubborn like that. Our pills are not rocket science. They are probably as basic as they get, a pill with a hole in them. We didn't replicate the "venturi" or whatever the heck thing the workz pill has going on. I've tuned with both and I don't find one little difference whatsoever.
However if the X works with the normal pills we have been using on the 8/9's then we already have about 1,000 of them.
The funny thing about the workz pill is that I specifically stayed away from even looking at the pill they used when I was trying to find the "right" size pill for the 8/9's. Sometimes I am stubborn like that. Our pills are not rocket science. They are probably as basic as they get, a pill with a hole in them. We didn't replicate the "venturi" or whatever the heck thing the workz pill has going on. I've tuned with both and I don't find one little difference whatsoever.
Last edited by razorlab; Apr 30, 2008 at 07:42 PM.
Updates:
-ECU controlled boost working perfectly in temperatures varying from 39 degrees to 80 degrees so far. No spikes in fifth that aren't caught immediately by boost correction.
-Slight MPG improvement on highway this week (probably because the fueling is not so pig rich and I don't have to rev the snot out of the car to pass)
-Ultimate Racing DP and test pipe with mini muffler coming and will retune soon to see what a flashed car with a turbo-back will do.
-Partial throttle boost still perfect, no P1235 code ever since using ECU controlled boost.
I've driven the car quite a lot in this post-tuned state the past 5 days, including a 3 hour trip. I believe that any Evo X owner would benefit greatly from a tune.
-ECU controlled boost working perfectly in temperatures varying from 39 degrees to 80 degrees so far. No spikes in fifth that aren't caught immediately by boost correction.
-Slight MPG improvement on highway this week (probably because the fueling is not so pig rich and I don't have to rev the snot out of the car to pass)
-Ultimate Racing DP and test pipe with mini muffler coming and will retune soon to see what a flashed car with a turbo-back will do.
-Partial throttle boost still perfect, no P1235 code ever since using ECU controlled boost.
I've driven the car quite a lot in this post-tuned state the past 5 days, including a 3 hour trip. I believe that any Evo X owner would benefit greatly from a tune.
What psi are you boosting again??
Does WORKS even have an X???