Removing Pill
You may see an increase in boost. Basically you are removing the restriction in the line to the wastegate that controls the pressure going to the wastegate. Removing the pill decrease the work the solenoid has to do to maintain the boost target.
So you may experience a bigger spike than normal, as it settles towards the boost target.
So you may experience a bigger spike than normal, as it settles towards the boost target.
Why remove the pill when the same result can be achieved by simply tweaking the WGDC table!!! Removing the pill makes boost ERRATIC. It is there for a reason.
The 93 octane stage 2 AEM map notes say that removing the pill is REQUIRED. There is no mention of it being optional as Cobb stated in their post here. It states that the boost is ~24 psi at peak and tapers to ~17 psi by redline. That can be achieved ANYWHERE in the US on 93 octane w/o removing the pill, except maybe Colorado.
Yes there are differences in the boost systems on Evo Xs, but the differences are not that huge to require the removal of the pill, especially when you have 21-25% WGDC to play with. If the WGDC was maxxed out, then by all mean remove the pill, but it is not maxxed out on the maps.
I am just trying to understand why and your answer fails to address my question. Saying that every Evo is different and that these maps are globalb does not address the question.
What is your problem? I don't have a problem, but you on the other hand have a problem not paying attention.I am simply asking for an explanation NOT from you but from Cobb.They already explained it to you, but remember that problem you have.
Why remove the pill when the same result can be achieved by simply tweaking the WGDC table!!! Removing the pill makes boost ERRATIC. It is there for a reason.On who's car? Removing it on my car does not make it ERRATIC, it simply just boost to high.
The 93 octane stage 2 AEM map notes say that removing the pill is REQUIRED. There is no mention of it being optional as Cobb stated in their post here.See below, also Gunzo told you before that this car is new, we are learning new stuff about it all the time, just because something was required before, does not mean it works now. It states that the boost is ~24 psi at peak and tapers to ~17 psi by redline. That can be achieved ANYWHERE in the US on 93 octane w/o removing the pill, except maybe Colorado.Again based on what? Your vast tuning experience? There are plenty of people running with and without the pill. And Colorado? Seriously, so what happened to the "it works everywhere and anywhere."
Yes there are differences in the boost systems on Evo Xs, but the differences are not that huge to require the removal of the pill, especially when you have 21-25% WGDC to play with. If the WGDC was maxxed out, then by all mean remove the pill, but it is not maxxed out on the maps.So now you are contradicting yourself? I thought you said that ANYWHERE it you can achieve boost targets WITHOUT removing the pill and that the differences were not that huge to require removal of the pill?
I am just trying to understand why and your answer fails to address my question. Saying that every Evo is different and that these maps are globalb does not address the question.Yes it does, you just choose not to heed my response and Cobb's. They answered your question, and you were not simply happy with it.
Why remove the pill when the same result can be achieved by simply tweaking the WGDC table!!! Removing the pill makes boost ERRATIC. It is there for a reason.On who's car? Removing it on my car does not make it ERRATIC, it simply just boost to high.
The 93 octane stage 2 AEM map notes say that removing the pill is REQUIRED. There is no mention of it being optional as Cobb stated in their post here.See below, also Gunzo told you before that this car is new, we are learning new stuff about it all the time, just because something was required before, does not mean it works now. It states that the boost is ~24 psi at peak and tapers to ~17 psi by redline. That can be achieved ANYWHERE in the US on 93 octane w/o removing the pill, except maybe Colorado.Again based on what? Your vast tuning experience? There are plenty of people running with and without the pill. And Colorado? Seriously, so what happened to the "it works everywhere and anywhere."
Yes there are differences in the boost systems on Evo Xs, but the differences are not that huge to require the removal of the pill, especially when you have 21-25% WGDC to play with. If the WGDC was maxxed out, then by all mean remove the pill, but it is not maxxed out on the maps.So now you are contradicting yourself? I thought you said that ANYWHERE it you can achieve boost targets WITHOUT removing the pill and that the differences were not that huge to require removal of the pill?
I am just trying to understand why and your answer fails to address my question. Saying that every Evo is different and that these maps are globalb does not address the question.Yes it does, you just choose not to heed my response and Cobb's. They answered your question, and you were not simply happy with it.
It should be noted that we have seen differences in the boost control systems on these cars. Some need the restrictor pill modification done, some don't. If you are hitting targets there is no need to do the pill mod. If you aren't, then pulling the pill will help you hit your targets. It's best to start with the pill in and go from there.
Seeing as the big tuner you are, it's pretty obvious you don't know the basic facts about how much altitude plays a factor in a cars performance. Based on your web page, you live somewhere near sea level in CA (~150ft. Fullerton, CA), Cobb (~4,500ft. SLC, UT) and me (Mid-Mo ~1,000).
Last edited by AWDTerror; Aug 12, 2009 at 04:55 AM.
1. They did not explain it, they evaded answering the question. On THEIR WEBSITE there is no mention of the pill removal being optional. On the website it says it is REQUIRED. Then Cobb comes here and says it is optional. So which one is it? Optional or Required.
2. Have you logged the boost on your car with the pill removed? If so then please post the log. Erratic mean that it spikes and then drops quickly thereafter. That happens most of the time when you remove the pill on the solenoid side.
3. I am not contradicting myself.
Statements A: There is enough WGDC in the maps to negate pill removal. There is no need for it with the current stage 2 maps that are posted on their website. There is 21-25% WGDC to paly with.
Statement B: If the maps were maxed out, then go ahead and remove the pill, but they are not.
There is no contradiction between the two statements above. B flows from A. Basically, if A is not possible, then do B. Where is the contradiction?
2. Have you logged the boost on your car with the pill removed? If so then please post the log. Erratic mean that it spikes and then drops quickly thereafter. That happens most of the time when you remove the pill on the solenoid side.
3. I am not contradicting myself.
Statements A: There is enough WGDC in the maps to negate pill removal. There is no need for it with the current stage 2 maps that are posted on their website. There is 21-25% WGDC to paly with.
Statement B: If the maps were maxed out, then go ahead and remove the pill, but they are not.
There is no contradiction between the two statements above. B flows from A. Basically, if A is not possible, then do B. Where is the contradiction?
1. They did not explain it, they evaded answering the question. On THEIR WEBSITE there is no mention of the pill removal being optional. On the website it says it is REQUIRED. Then Cobb comes here and says it is optional. So which one is it? Optional or Required.This is along the same lines as what Gunzo told you and you still refuse to listen. If you cannot discern between the 2, then may God have mercy on your soul.
2. Have you logged the boost on your car with the pill removed? If so then please post the log. Erratic mean that it spikes and then drops quickly thereafter.In the case of the Evo X, spiking and dropping quickly thereafter is not considered 'erratic'. You should obviously know that since you read THEIR WEBSITE so closely. That happens most of the time when you remove the pill on the solenoid side.This happens all the time, it is how the maps are designed, and it's how even the STOCK Evo X map is designed.
3. I am not contradicting myself. Yeah, you are. Not only that, you have no clue what you are talking about, and I hope every person who you have 'touched' reads this.
Statements A: There is enough WGDC in the maps to negate pill removal. There is no need for it with the current stage 2 maps that are posted on their website. There is 21-25% WGDC to paly with.
Statement B: If the maps were maxed out, then go ahead and remove the pill, but they are not.
There is no contradiction between the two statements above. B flows from A. Basically, if A is not possible, then do B. Where is the contradiction?
2. Have you logged the boost on your car with the pill removed? If so then please post the log. Erratic mean that it spikes and then drops quickly thereafter.In the case of the Evo X, spiking and dropping quickly thereafter is not considered 'erratic'. You should obviously know that since you read THEIR WEBSITE so closely. That happens most of the time when you remove the pill on the solenoid side.This happens all the time, it is how the maps are designed, and it's how even the STOCK Evo X map is designed.
3. I am not contradicting myself. Yeah, you are. Not only that, you have no clue what you are talking about, and I hope every person who you have 'touched' reads this.
Statements A: There is enough WGDC in the maps to negate pill removal. There is no need for it with the current stage 2 maps that are posted on their website. There is 21-25% WGDC to paly with.
Statement B: If the maps were maxed out, then go ahead and remove the pill, but they are not.
There is no contradiction between the two statements above. B flows from A. Basically, if A is not possible, then do B. Where is the contradiction?
Do you even understand how this whole tuning thing works?
...So why does Cobb tell you to remove the pill on stage 2 maps when there is plenty of WGDC left?...
There simply no reason to remove the pill when the WGDC tables are NOT maxxed out. That is the case with all your stage 2 maps.
Again with the problem of not paying attention. Because you continue to talk out the side of your mouth. You have assumed from the beginning that every car has 21-25% WGDC to play with, just because you set the map for that doesn't mean you car will do the same.
Do you even understand how this whole tuning thing works?
Do you even understand how this whole tuning thing works?
On the passive solenoid side there is no compensation. So what is in the map is pretty much what you will get in the log. The map is set agt 71% @ WOT from 5000 rpm to redline. So you have 29% WGDC to play with.
So going with your argument that the map does not translate directly to WGDC logged, we are still left with 29%-15% WGDC. More than enoguh to get you to 24 psi and tapering to 18 psi w/o removing the pill.
If as you suggest that we have discovered new stuff now and so, as Gunzo says, we can tune with VTA BOV, so the same applies here. Then why don't Cobb change the website and say that it is now optional and not required. After all since the knowledge changed, then let that be reflected on the website. Cobb should inform their customers that it is now optional to remove the pill. They have not done that. They are requiring their customers to remove the pill and then Cobb comes in here and says it is optional.
Last edited by nj1266; Aug 12, 2009 at 01:26 PM.
Of course the number in the map does not translate directly to the numbers logged. The ECU has TBEC and it has a maximum upward compensattion of 10%. So if you not hitting your boost target the ECU adds a max of 10% WGDC to the active solenoid. So let us assume that the log adds 10% to what is already in the map, ie, the logged load is lower than the target load. In the 93 octane AEM Map the fine (active) WGDC is set at 75% at WOT. So there is 25% left when not adding the 10% compensation. Add the 10% compensation and now you are left with 15% WGDC to play with.
On the passive solenoid side there is no compensation. So what is in the map is pretty much what you will get in the log. The map is set agt 71% @ WOT from 5000 rpm to redline. So you have 29% WGDC to play with.
So going with your argument that the map does not translate directly to WGDC logged, we are still left with 29%-15% WGDC. More than enoguh to get you to 24 psi and tapering to 18 psi w/o removing the pill.
Your repeating what it already know, but you still don't listen or understand. If a Evo X leaves the pill in and is not hitting boost targets, and the logs read 100% WGDC, what then? By your thoughts, or whatever junk runs through your head, this is not possible. Because every car should be the same...oh wait that's where your contradiction comes into place, because now you say, if it's not working then remove the pill.
Ok then what do you do if you remove the pill and your still not hitting target boost, lets say 20psi dropping to 14-15psi, and your logs are still showing 100%? What now?
If as you suggest that we have discovered new stuff now and so, as Gunzo says, we can tune with VTA BOV, so the same applies here. Then why don't Cobb change the website and say that it is now optional and not required. Because maybe they are too busy developing items or trying to answer all the ignorant questions you ask.After all since the knowledge changed, then let that be reflected on the website. Cobb should inform their customers that it is now optional to remove the pill. They have not done that. They are requiring their customers to remove the pill and then Cobb comes in here and says it is optional.If you don't like it, you have the freedom to leave, buy something else, or just kick rocks. People like you give real tuners and enthusiast a bad image.
On the passive solenoid side there is no compensation. So what is in the map is pretty much what you will get in the log. The map is set agt 71% @ WOT from 5000 rpm to redline. So you have 29% WGDC to play with.
So going with your argument that the map does not translate directly to WGDC logged, we are still left with 29%-15% WGDC. More than enoguh to get you to 24 psi and tapering to 18 psi w/o removing the pill.
Your repeating what it already know, but you still don't listen or understand. If a Evo X leaves the pill in and is not hitting boost targets, and the logs read 100% WGDC, what then? By your thoughts, or whatever junk runs through your head, this is not possible. Because every car should be the same...oh wait that's where your contradiction comes into place, because now you say, if it's not working then remove the pill.
Ok then what do you do if you remove the pill and your still not hitting target boost, lets say 20psi dropping to 14-15psi, and your logs are still showing 100%? What now?
If as you suggest that we have discovered new stuff now and so, as Gunzo says, we can tune with VTA BOV, so the same applies here. Then why don't Cobb change the website and say that it is now optional and not required. Because maybe they are too busy developing items or trying to answer all the ignorant questions you ask.After all since the knowledge changed, then let that be reflected on the website. Cobb should inform their customers that it is now optional to remove the pill. They have not done that. They are requiring their customers to remove the pill and then Cobb comes in here and says it is optional.If you don't like it, you have the freedom to leave, buy something else, or just kick rocks. People like you give real tuners and enthusiast a bad image.
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 4
From: PA
ladies, seriously if i wanted to watch women bicker about trivial things i'd quit my job to stay home to watch "The View." Quit wasting time picking apart off the shelf maps and go out and enjoy them or get someone with knowledge to give you a tune.
this thread served it's purpose. you ladies need to go back to the X general section and worry about glove box rattles and A/C settings.
btw cobb, thanks for the input.
/thread
Former Sponsor
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Likes: 1
From: USA
I have informed our tuners about this thread and I am wating to hear back on some more data.
It is hard to construct a clear picture sometimes of when and how an manufacturer makes changes to a car, especially within the same model year. We have noted that some cars behave differently than other car, it may be that we don't have enough data at this time to give a definitive answer as to why some EVOXs require the restrictor pill to be removed and some don't.
However, we learn new things all the time. We are constantly adjusting and responding to customer critiques and experiences. Often times, it is your feedback that guides us to making new changes, adding features and other developments to our products.
Our intention is never to be evasive, but do keep in mind that it takes time to gather data, process it and then come back with an informed and valuable answer. Hopefully I can give you some more answers in the very near future. Our EVOX Guru is at this very moment on the dyno, in an EVO making power! I will be sitting down with him soon to discuss these matters.
Travis Geny
COBB Tuning
It is hard to construct a clear picture sometimes of when and how an manufacturer makes changes to a car, especially within the same model year. We have noted that some cars behave differently than other car, it may be that we don't have enough data at this time to give a definitive answer as to why some EVOXs require the restrictor pill to be removed and some don't.
However, we learn new things all the time. We are constantly adjusting and responding to customer critiques and experiences. Often times, it is your feedback that guides us to making new changes, adding features and other developments to our products.
Our intention is never to be evasive, but do keep in mind that it takes time to gather data, process it and then come back with an informed and valuable answer. Hopefully I can give you some more answers in the very near future. Our EVOX Guru is at this very moment on the dyno, in an EVO making power! I will be sitting down with him soon to discuss these matters.
Travis Geny
COBB Tuning
Former Sponsor
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Likes: 1
From: USA
The reason we do not simply turn up WGDC (wastegate duty cycle) is two fold. First, you don't want to max out the boost control system to hit your target. The reason for this is that if your system goes to 100% (static) there is no longer any control, we like to keep a buffer in place so that the boost control system can function in both directions. It may be that in some instances you might need more duty cycle for given ambient conditions. To this end, it is more beneficial to mechanically alter the system by increasing or decreasing the size of the orifice in the restrictor pills, or by removing them completely. This allows you to keep some buffer in the system and still reach your boost targets.
Secondly, just becuase you increase duty cycle, the car may not increase boost pressure. Since the EVOX uses load targets, if the car is hitting is desired load targets, it may not try to increase boost pressure.
Here is a segment from our AccessTUNER Race, tuning guide that explains this:
The stock EVO X boost control system is complex. First, boost is not tuned by adjusting specific pressure targets but is instead based upon a target load. These values are “Calculated Load” values that are derived from the MAF signal (metered airflow). These values do not correlate to specific boost pressure values. The higher the value, the higher the target boost; the lower the value, the lower the target boost. Cobb Tuning Stage1 maps are designed to reach 22 to 24psi peak boost pressure. Stage2 maps target 23 to 25psi peak boost pressure. There are three target target tables. Table A is used for wide open throttle when the vehicle speed/RPM ratio is below the switch point (“Map switch breakpoint” under Miscellaneous Tables). Table B is used when the ratio is above that indicated in the “Map switch breakpoint” table.
The boost control system has a complex relationship with overall tuning and sometimes a little experiementation is required. We have taken the input in this thread into consideration and will be reflected in revisions to our documentation.
Secondly, just becuase you increase duty cycle, the car may not increase boost pressure. Since the EVOX uses load targets, if the car is hitting is desired load targets, it may not try to increase boost pressure.
Here is a segment from our AccessTUNER Race, tuning guide that explains this:
The stock EVO X boost control system is complex. First, boost is not tuned by adjusting specific pressure targets but is instead based upon a target load. These values are “Calculated Load” values that are derived from the MAF signal (metered airflow). These values do not correlate to specific boost pressure values. The higher the value, the higher the target boost; the lower the value, the lower the target boost. Cobb Tuning Stage1 maps are designed to reach 22 to 24psi peak boost pressure. Stage2 maps target 23 to 25psi peak boost pressure. There are three target target tables. Table A is used for wide open throttle when the vehicle speed/RPM ratio is below the switch point (“Map switch breakpoint” under Miscellaneous Tables). Table B is used when the ratio is above that indicated in the “Map switch breakpoint” table.
The boost control system has a complex relationship with overall tuning and sometimes a little experiementation is required. We have taken the input in this thread into consideration and will be reflected in revisions to our documentation.
