Tune Very Inconsistent
Tune Very Inconsistent
Well, I figured I'd finally suck it up and post on here for help.
First, a list of my mods:
FP Red, ported and polished
ported and polished stock exhaust manifold
DW 1000CC injectors
AMS Fuel Rail
Ultimate Racing Fuel Filter & W 255 Fuel Pump Kit
AMS Intake
AMS Intercooler and IC pipes
Perrin Turbo-back exhaust
AEM UEGO wideband
AEM tru-boost controller
Running around 22-24 PSI of boost.
I think those are all my mods that matter. Anyways, I started out with gunzo's 93 octane map and went from there. Went out and tuned the air/fuel ratio at first, and even did some maf scaling. Well this seemed to work at first but then a few days later it got SUPER rich so I put the 93 oct map back on and started from scratch.
I got the trims to look really good....they're staying at between -3 to +3 for both idle and cruise, and most of the time they are really close to 0. My injector scaling is set at 696. One thing I've been noticing is that the tune seems very inconsistent, especially under WOT. I tried swapping out my MAF and also all of my spark plugs. The only codes and I threw were p0300 random cylinder misfire and also i think p0420 cat inefficiency, and I always clear them with evoscan.
Just to clarify, when I say inconsistent, I mean on some days I've seen high 10's under WOT and other days I have seen mid 12's under WOT, with the same exact calibration. Haven't touched it at all or made any other changes to the vehicle.
Oh another thing I've noticed. Sometimes my car doesn't like to lean-cut, especially after rev-matching downshifts. I'll take my foot off the throttle and it'll keep injecting fuel. And....now this is gonna kinda hard to explain but let's say for instance I'm in 4th cruising at 45 and I need to start slowing down. So I lazily pop it into neutral and begin to slow down. Well, it lean cuts for a bit and then as I continue to slow down, it starts to add fuel. But it adds a lot. It'll be like high 11's, low 12's for awhile and slowlllyyyy (10-20 seconds) get back to the 14.7 it's tuned for. it's like the STFT's don't kick in for awhile. OH and another really weird thing. I've noticed a lot of times that part-throttle (like maybe 60-85% throttle) is actually RICHER than wot, but on the map it is NOT tuned for this. It's like I'll go out and tune it perfectly to 11.5 under WOT and then after a day or two, sometimes more, it messes up and starts going either rich or lean, and I can't figure out why.
So right now the maf scaling is stock (or what came in gunzo's map, which I'm pretty sure is stock). All the air/fuel tuning is done on the map and the trims are consistently looking really good, so what's the problem? Why is my car acting so weird and temperamental? The only thing I can think of is maybe my fuel pressure is all out of whack and varying. I guess the only thing I can do is start 1 by 1 putting my fuel system back to stock, which I really don't want to do.
So if any of you can PLEASE help me troubleshoot this issue, I'd really really appreciate it.
Thanks all for reading this super long post!
Kenny
First, a list of my mods:
FP Red, ported and polished
ported and polished stock exhaust manifold
DW 1000CC injectors
AMS Fuel Rail
Ultimate Racing Fuel Filter & W 255 Fuel Pump Kit
AMS Intake
AMS Intercooler and IC pipes
Perrin Turbo-back exhaust
AEM UEGO wideband
AEM tru-boost controller
Running around 22-24 PSI of boost.
I think those are all my mods that matter. Anyways, I started out with gunzo's 93 octane map and went from there. Went out and tuned the air/fuel ratio at first, and even did some maf scaling. Well this seemed to work at first but then a few days later it got SUPER rich so I put the 93 oct map back on and started from scratch.
I got the trims to look really good....they're staying at between -3 to +3 for both idle and cruise, and most of the time they are really close to 0. My injector scaling is set at 696. One thing I've been noticing is that the tune seems very inconsistent, especially under WOT. I tried swapping out my MAF and also all of my spark plugs. The only codes and I threw were p0300 random cylinder misfire and also i think p0420 cat inefficiency, and I always clear them with evoscan.
Just to clarify, when I say inconsistent, I mean on some days I've seen high 10's under WOT and other days I have seen mid 12's under WOT, with the same exact calibration. Haven't touched it at all or made any other changes to the vehicle.
Oh another thing I've noticed. Sometimes my car doesn't like to lean-cut, especially after rev-matching downshifts. I'll take my foot off the throttle and it'll keep injecting fuel. And....now this is gonna kinda hard to explain but let's say for instance I'm in 4th cruising at 45 and I need to start slowing down. So I lazily pop it into neutral and begin to slow down. Well, it lean cuts for a bit and then as I continue to slow down, it starts to add fuel. But it adds a lot. It'll be like high 11's, low 12's for awhile and slowlllyyyy (10-20 seconds) get back to the 14.7 it's tuned for. it's like the STFT's don't kick in for awhile. OH and another really weird thing. I've noticed a lot of times that part-throttle (like maybe 60-85% throttle) is actually RICHER than wot, but on the map it is NOT tuned for this. It's like I'll go out and tune it perfectly to 11.5 under WOT and then after a day or two, sometimes more, it messes up and starts going either rich or lean, and I can't figure out why.
So right now the maf scaling is stock (or what came in gunzo's map, which I'm pretty sure is stock). All the air/fuel tuning is done on the map and the trims are consistently looking really good, so what's the problem? Why is my car acting so weird and temperamental? The only thing I can think of is maybe my fuel pressure is all out of whack and varying. I guess the only thing I can do is start 1 by 1 putting my fuel system back to stock, which I really don't want to do.
So if any of you can PLEASE help me troubleshoot this issue, I'd really really appreciate it.
Thanks all for reading this super long post!
Kenny
Last edited by bandit09; May 20, 2010 at 11:44 PM.
I don't know if I can help, but the only things I can think of that would cause wild fluctuations in the A/F are:
1. Failing FP relay
2. A restriction in the fuel return line causing high fuel pressure sometimes thus leadiing to inconsistency.
There have been a few threads here about the return lines causing high pressure, check em out. One thread in particular found that we have a return fuel filter that can become clogged...Look around I'm sure you'll find it.
1. Failing FP relay
2. A restriction in the fuel return line causing high fuel pressure sometimes thus leadiing to inconsistency.
There have been a few threads here about the return lines causing high pressure, check em out. One thread in particular found that we have a return fuel filter that can become clogged...Look around I'm sure you'll find it.
1) check for boost leaks
2) recheck for boost leaks
3) run the most recent ROMID for your car, P0300 is a sign of an old ROMID
4) check your Fuel Pump Relay - swap in a green/blue one for safety
5) turn off LTFT affecting WOT (search for a thread by me)
6) what wideband do you have? check the calibration
7) check for exhaust leaks before the wideband
8) post up logs of good vs bad, we should be able to help a bit more
2) recheck for boost leaks
3) run the most recent ROMID for your car, P0300 is a sign of an old ROMID
4) check your Fuel Pump Relay - swap in a green/blue one for safety
5) turn off LTFT affecting WOT (search for a thread by me)
6) what wideband do you have? check the calibration
7) check for exhaust leaks before the wideband
8) post up logs of good vs bad, we should be able to help a bit more
The ECU still has some control over the AFRs due to changes in climate, humidity...also inconsistency of the quality of gas...that is what caused me to exhibit the same symptoms as you describe.
yeah but if you turn off some of that crap (in particular the fuel trim affecting wot) it wont swing so much...
my tune only varies upto 0.2 between a cold day and warmish one...
my tune only varies upto 0.2 between a cold day and warmish one...
the only thing that seems highly abnormal is the inconsistency at WOT. all the idle/coasting/engine braking stuff you describe seems more or less normal to me.
in addition to what tephra said, other things to check/think about:
-did you check that troublesome FPR hose that can come loose?
-696 seems a bit low for scaling. I know the DW1000s are a slightly smaller injector than my FIC1100s, but my FICs are scaled at 696 for E85. not that I think this is the sole cause of the problem, but it could be a factor.
in addition to what tephra said, other things to check/think about:
-did you check that troublesome FPR hose that can come loose?
-696 seems a bit low for scaling. I know the DW1000s are a slightly smaller injector than my FIC1100s, but my FICs are scaled at 696 for E85. not that I think this is the sole cause of the problem, but it could be a factor.
what rom id are you using?
- check for exhaust leaks before the o2 sensor
- not sure if you're lean spool is still on..that might trigger the differences too..
- also Turbo boost error correction might be a factor here too (try zeroing it out first then log)
- is that rev-hanging you're pertaining to about when you release throttle? if it is, try stepping on the clutch like just tapping it after releasing pedal from wot..
- it could be triggering the low-octane timing and fuel map check your logs for knocks
- log would help us determine what could be wrong
- check for exhaust leaks before the o2 sensor
- not sure if you're lean spool is still on..that might trigger the differences too..
- also Turbo boost error correction might be a factor here too (try zeroing it out first then log)
- is that rev-hanging you're pertaining to about when you release throttle? if it is, try stepping on the clutch like just tapping it after releasing pedal from wot..
- it could be triggering the low-octane timing and fuel map check your logs for knocks
- log would help us determine what could be wrong
Trending Topics
What they said.... and....
"OH and another really weird thing." ...it sounds like you have alot of problems mostly caused by changing too many things at once. Put the MAF scaling to stock or the posted COBB scaling and then spend AT LEAST A WEEK verifying your LTFT without going WOT. DON'T change more than 1 thing at a time. Verify your relay is good and you don't have boost leaks, then tune and come back.
Well, I figured I'd finally suck it up and post on here for help.
First, a list of my mods:
FP Red, ported and polished
ported and polished stock exhaust manifold
DW 1000CC injectors
AMS Fuel Rail
Ultimate Racing Fuel Filter & W 255 Fuel Pump Kit
AMS Intake
AMS Intercooler and IC pipes
Perrin Turbo-back exhaust
AEM UEGO wideband
AEM tru-boost controller
Running around 22-24 PSI of boost.
I think those are all my mods that matter. Anyways, I started out with gunzo's 93 octane map and went from there. Went out and tuned the air/fuel ratio at first, and even did some maf scaling.
*****For the AMS Intake there are COBB #s floating around on here. I think I have them in an excel if you need it. Otherwise I would just leave it stock.
Well this seemed to work at first but then a few days later it got SUPER rich so I put the 93 oct map back on and started from scratch.
I got the trims to look really good....they're staying at between -3 to +3 for both idle and cruise, and most of the time they are really close to 0.
***My trims don't move *that* much. Are you sure you scaled the latency properly? Stop messing with the MAF and get the injectors right first
My injector scaling is set at 696. One thing I've been noticing is that the tune seems very inconsistent, especially under WOT. I tried swapping out my MAF and also all of my spark plugs. The only codes and I threw were p0300 random cylinder misfire and also i think p0420 cat inefficiency, and I always clear them with evoscan.
***A list of reasons why I don't use other people's roms. Copy the MAPs you are interested in to the most current ROMID for your car. It seems like you can tune the rest, so in my experience the initial laziness of not doing it yourself costs alot of research and head scratching down the road. Again, latencies here, and drive for a week on the scaling / latency checking every 20 miles or so to make sure the LTFT are staying in the same spot. Also, as Tephra suggested disable the LTFTMID effect on WOT.
Just to clarify, when I say inconsistent, I mean on some days I've seen high 10's under WOT and other days I have seen mid 12's under WOT, with the same exact calibration. Haven't touched it at all or made any other changes to the vehicle.
***This is a sign to _STOP_ and figure out what is wrong before going any further.
Oh another thing I've noticed. Sometimes my car doesn't like to lean-cut, especially after rev-matching downshifts
*** (How would it lean cut and raise RPM?)
. I'll take my foot off the throttle and it'll keep injecting fuel.
***This is normal after you get on the gas... there is a decay in case you are in a racing situation and seems to take longer at higher RPM / with the throttle applied longer
And....now this is gonna kinda hard to explain but let's say for instance I'm in 4th cruising at 45 and I need to start slowing down. So I lazily pop it into neutral and begin to slow down. Well, it lean cuts for a bit and then as I continue to slow down, it starts to add fuel. But it adds a lot. It'll be like high 11's, low 12's for awhile and slowlllyyyy (10-20 seconds) get back to the 14.7 it's tuned for. it's like the STFT's don't kick in for awhile.
****Probably because your injector scaling, LTFT, MAF scaling, or all of the above are off. At low airflows a statically incorrect addition to the IPW will have a greater effect on throwing things off. I'm not exactly clear on what you are saying here though, but you shouldn't be in nuetral anyway unless you are near or at a stop.
OH and another really weird thing. I've noticed a lot of times that part-throttle (like maybe 60-85% throttle) is actually RICHER than wot, but on the map it is NOT tuned for this. It's like I'll go out and tune it perfectly to 11.5 under WOT and then after a day or two, sometimes more, it messes up and starts going either rich or lean, and I can't figure out why.
***Sounds like MAF Scaling, but apparently you have changed it a bunch of times so who knows what scaling was causing this.
So right now the maf scaling is stock (or what came in gunzo's map, which I'm pretty sure is stock). All the air/fuel tuning is done on the map and the trims are consistently looking really good, so what's the problem? Why is my car acting so weird and temperamental? The only thing I can think of is maybe my fuel pressure is all out of whack and varying. I guess the only thing I can do is start 1 by 1 putting my fuel system back to stock, which I really don't want to do.
So if any of you can PLEASE help me troubleshoot this issue, I'd really really appreciate it.
Thanks all for reading this super long post!
Kenny
First, a list of my mods:
FP Red, ported and polished
ported and polished stock exhaust manifold
DW 1000CC injectors
AMS Fuel Rail
Ultimate Racing Fuel Filter & W 255 Fuel Pump Kit
AMS Intake
AMS Intercooler and IC pipes
Perrin Turbo-back exhaust
AEM UEGO wideband
AEM tru-boost controller
Running around 22-24 PSI of boost.
I think those are all my mods that matter. Anyways, I started out with gunzo's 93 octane map and went from there. Went out and tuned the air/fuel ratio at first, and even did some maf scaling.
*****For the AMS Intake there are COBB #s floating around on here. I think I have them in an excel if you need it. Otherwise I would just leave it stock.
Well this seemed to work at first but then a few days later it got SUPER rich so I put the 93 oct map back on and started from scratch.
I got the trims to look really good....they're staying at between -3 to +3 for both idle and cruise, and most of the time they are really close to 0.
***My trims don't move *that* much. Are you sure you scaled the latency properly? Stop messing with the MAF and get the injectors right first
My injector scaling is set at 696. One thing I've been noticing is that the tune seems very inconsistent, especially under WOT. I tried swapping out my MAF and also all of my spark plugs. The only codes and I threw were p0300 random cylinder misfire and also i think p0420 cat inefficiency, and I always clear them with evoscan.
***A list of reasons why I don't use other people's roms. Copy the MAPs you are interested in to the most current ROMID for your car. It seems like you can tune the rest, so in my experience the initial laziness of not doing it yourself costs alot of research and head scratching down the road. Again, latencies here, and drive for a week on the scaling / latency checking every 20 miles or so to make sure the LTFT are staying in the same spot. Also, as Tephra suggested disable the LTFTMID effect on WOT.
Just to clarify, when I say inconsistent, I mean on some days I've seen high 10's under WOT and other days I have seen mid 12's under WOT, with the same exact calibration. Haven't touched it at all or made any other changes to the vehicle.
***This is a sign to _STOP_ and figure out what is wrong before going any further.
Oh another thing I've noticed. Sometimes my car doesn't like to lean-cut, especially after rev-matching downshifts
*** (How would it lean cut and raise RPM?)
. I'll take my foot off the throttle and it'll keep injecting fuel.
***This is normal after you get on the gas... there is a decay in case you are in a racing situation and seems to take longer at higher RPM / with the throttle applied longer
And....now this is gonna kinda hard to explain but let's say for instance I'm in 4th cruising at 45 and I need to start slowing down. So I lazily pop it into neutral and begin to slow down. Well, it lean cuts for a bit and then as I continue to slow down, it starts to add fuel. But it adds a lot. It'll be like high 11's, low 12's for awhile and slowlllyyyy (10-20 seconds) get back to the 14.7 it's tuned for. it's like the STFT's don't kick in for awhile.
****Probably because your injector scaling, LTFT, MAF scaling, or all of the above are off. At low airflows a statically incorrect addition to the IPW will have a greater effect on throwing things off. I'm not exactly clear on what you are saying here though, but you shouldn't be in nuetral anyway unless you are near or at a stop.
OH and another really weird thing. I've noticed a lot of times that part-throttle (like maybe 60-85% throttle) is actually RICHER than wot, but on the map it is NOT tuned for this. It's like I'll go out and tune it perfectly to 11.5 under WOT and then after a day or two, sometimes more, it messes up and starts going either rich or lean, and I can't figure out why.
***Sounds like MAF Scaling, but apparently you have changed it a bunch of times so who knows what scaling was causing this.
So right now the maf scaling is stock (or what came in gunzo's map, which I'm pretty sure is stock). All the air/fuel tuning is done on the map and the trims are consistently looking really good, so what's the problem? Why is my car acting so weird and temperamental? The only thing I can think of is maybe my fuel pressure is all out of whack and varying. I guess the only thing I can do is start 1 by 1 putting my fuel system back to stock, which I really don't want to do.
So if any of you can PLEASE help me troubleshoot this issue, I'd really really appreciate it.
Thanks all for reading this super long post!
Kenny
All -
Thank you very very much for the suggestions.
I forgot to mention I did replace my relay with the new green one. I am on ROM 52680018 for those who asked. I also forgot to mention that I did have a fuel pressure issue in my return line before. It was really high....so I took the housing out and found the little tiny filter was clogged. I removed the clog and put it back in and it doesn't seem to happen anymore. I have a fuel pressure gauge in my engine bay (before it goes into the fuel rail) and things seem okay when idle and revving but it's impossible to check the gauge under load/boost.
I will go out today and try what everyone suggested, and also do some logs. I will post back here with some logs and any progress.
Thank you all again, will post back soon!
Thank you very very much for the suggestions.
I forgot to mention I did replace my relay with the new green one. I am on ROM 52680018 for those who asked. I also forgot to mention that I did have a fuel pressure issue in my return line before. It was really high....so I took the housing out and found the little tiny filter was clogged. I removed the clog and put it back in and it doesn't seem to happen anymore. I have a fuel pressure gauge in my engine bay (before it goes into the fuel rail) and things seem okay when idle and revving but it's impossible to check the gauge under load/boost.
I will go out today and try what everyone suggested, and also do some logs. I will post back here with some logs and any progress.
Thank you all again, will post back soon!
All -
Thank you very very much for the suggestions.
I forgot to mention I did replace my relay with the new green one. I am on ROM 52680018 for those who asked. I also forgot to mention that I did have a fuel pressure issue in my return line before. It was really high....so I took the housing out and found the little tiny filter was clogged. I removed the clog and put it back in and it doesn't seem to happen anymore. I have a fuel pressure gauge in my engine bay (before it goes into the fuel rail) and things seem okay when idle and revving but it's impossible to check the gauge under load/boost.
I will go out today and try what everyone suggested, and also do some logs. I will post back here with some logs and any progress.
Thank you all again, will post back soon!
Thank you very very much for the suggestions.
I forgot to mention I did replace my relay with the new green one. I am on ROM 52680018 for those who asked. I also forgot to mention that I did have a fuel pressure issue in my return line before. It was really high....so I took the housing out and found the little tiny filter was clogged. I removed the clog and put it back in and it doesn't seem to happen anymore. I have a fuel pressure gauge in my engine bay (before it goes into the fuel rail) and things seem okay when idle and revving but it's impossible to check the gauge under load/boost.
I will go out today and try what everyone suggested, and also do some logs. I will post back here with some logs and any progress.
Thank you all again, will post back soon!
It was a shriveled up piece of rubber/plastic.....it's a long story but I believe it was a chunk of my o-ring from when I replaced my injectors and fuel rail. When I was taking them out I noticed there was about a third of one of the o-rings missing. It was nowhere to be found, so I assumed it was somewhere in the fuel system. Well about 8k miles later I found out there was a tiny filter in the fuel pump return housing and sure enough it was there.....I suppose the gasoline made it get all shriveled up and deformed.
One thing I believe I forgot to mention is that under about 70-85% throttle, my air/fuel is actually RICHER than if I go WOT. This is extremely weird and frustrating, as the fuel map is most definitely not setup this way. I'll check for boost leaks and exhaust leaks early next week when I get a chance.....something is just telling me that it's the ECU. That, or the fuel pressure. Maybe I should open up the one return line orifice with a drill bit so it can flow more fuel.
Again, thanks to all who have posted.
One thing I believe I forgot to mention is that under about 70-85% throttle, my air/fuel is actually RICHER than if I go WOT. This is extremely weird and frustrating, as the fuel map is most definitely not setup this way. I'll check for boost leaks and exhaust leaks early next week when I get a chance.....something is just telling me that it's the ECU. That, or the fuel pressure. Maybe I should open up the one return line orifice with a drill bit so it can flow more fuel.
Again, thanks to all who have posted.
So I lazily pop it into neutral and begin to slow down. Well, it lean cuts for a bit and then as I continue to slow down, it starts to add fuel.
I had to force my co-driver Sean during the one lap event to change his driving habbits and we watched the average MPG on the dash gauge increase 1-2 MPG just with this alteration. At first I wasn't going to say anything but after it "stalled out of the blue" coming off the highway once where he threw it into neutral on an offramp with the headlights, brakes, and AC going full tilt it dawned on me that a sudden load on the engine while coasting down in neutral would potentially be dangerous when power steering cut out!
As for the rest of the tune being unpredictable, definitely look at disabling cruise LTFT from effecting WOT operation and you won't have the magic -3 or +3% LTFT altering your fuel delivery at WOT at seemingly random times, even during the same driven cycle and fuel supply/weather conditions!
UPDATE:
so I went out and checked for boost leaks. Everything seems good there. One thing I have noticed is that if I reset the ECU (unplug battery for awhile), then my air/fuel's are right where they should be. (~11.5 AFR). But then after a day or two (sometimes three or more) it will go lean. And the weird thing is the trims won't even go past plus or negative 3%. They're usually really close to 1%.
So then I went ahead and did the LTFT WOT disable. I didn't reset the ECU after I flashed it but I went out and the fueling was still on the lean side under WOT. It's actually all over the place but mostly lean. And the weird thing is, it's richer....much richer under say 80% throttle than under WOT.
This is extremely frustrating. Here is a screenshot and I will also post my log and even my hex tune file as something may be in there that I have overlooked?
http://phatlogic.com/Evo/Bandit-log-hex.zip
If anyone could be of any assistance it would GREATLY be appreciated. I am beating my head against the wall wondering why I am getting such inconsistencies.
Thank you!
so I went out and checked for boost leaks. Everything seems good there. One thing I have noticed is that if I reset the ECU (unplug battery for awhile), then my air/fuel's are right where they should be. (~11.5 AFR). But then after a day or two (sometimes three or more) it will go lean. And the weird thing is the trims won't even go past plus or negative 3%. They're usually really close to 1%.
So then I went ahead and did the LTFT WOT disable. I didn't reset the ECU after I flashed it but I went out and the fueling was still on the lean side under WOT. It's actually all over the place but mostly lean. And the weird thing is, it's richer....much richer under say 80% throttle than under WOT.
This is extremely frustrating. Here is a screenshot and I will also post my log and even my hex tune file as something may be in there that I have overlooked?
http://phatlogic.com/Evo/Bandit-log-hex.zip
If anyone could be of any assistance it would GREATLY be appreciated. I am beating my head against the wall wondering why I am getting such inconsistencies.
Thank you!
Well the mid (cruise?) trim was 2%, the idle went from -2.9% to -3.5% and the high trim bounced around from -3.4% to 2% before going to 0 around 100-120 load (like it's supposed to right?)
I'm not sure about the low trim.
I'm not sure about the low trim.