Just to add a little more info, please keep in mind that I am not trying to trash on any tuners in particular, but people need to know their tune is only as good as the tuner who made it, not how it's flashed into the ECU. All tuners are not created equal, and just because a car is "custom dyno tuned" doesn't mean its perfectly, or even properly, setup. Again, a tune is only as good as the tuner so whether a customer goes with Cobb or anyone else it is very important they trust and are comfortable with them.

 

Most people born after the stone age have laptops nowadays... with that being said...

Eflash = 199
Cable = 100 - 200
Evoscan = 30 or mitsulogger = free

worst case 430 for your first map with your current mods basically custom tuned.

or 595 for AP with an OTS map built for what similarly modded cars did then added the error for caution in just in case your car does something different.

We can discuss this point all day long... a custom tune will ALWAYS yield better results than something OTS. Obviously your tuner needs to know what the hell he is doing. I can guarantee that your OTS map from Cobb would not have yielded the results you made when you actually took it to them to tune the car. This is by no means taking anything away from Cobb, they are a great company and do great work obviously by the results that have always been shown. This is simply making the point that the OTS maps have to leave room for caution since different cars with the same setup vary in results and how they react to the same mods. By getting custom tuned, someone who knows what they are doing will yield better results by physically sitting in the car and adjusting the tune to the car and how it actually performs as opposed to how similar cars did.

 

Again with the black/white statement, my car is proof that your "ALWAYS" is false. I've stated it twice now but I guess third time is the charm: A tune is only as good as the tuner and they aren't all created equal.

For example, here is my car (blue) with it's old tune vs. a similarly modded Stage 2 OTS map car (red):

(the dates are incorrect, these runs were performed the same day only minutes apart)

As you can see, that OTS map is clearly stronger than my custom dyno tune.

 

Ah assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Laptops are not ubiquitous yet.

Who thinks every owner wants to do that work? Being close to a shop that can tune you without needed the tools is one thing. Cobb is still viable option for many average users. "Always" implies that the tuner is worth his salt. How do you judge that if you (the user) does not understand tuning? By forums? Hit or miss. By company history and reputation beyond?

 

I agree with Jason.

While I am not going to demonize the staff here by saying they can't have an opinion, I want to offer my counterpoint.

Two issues here.

First issue: A competent custom tune will be superior to a shelf map. What works great for one car might not be as great on another. Not all 4B11s are created equal.

Let's use Cobb as an example. If my car was running a shelf map from them, then I later went to get custom tuned, I would expect to see gains, even if minimal. Maybe my car will allow more timing in certain spots then the shelf map. Maybe the boost map could safely be adjusted upward without any knock. We won't know unless we custom tune the car.

Second issue: Comparing the cost of AP to Ecuflash and adding the price of a laptop into the equation is preposterous. Who doesn't have a laptop these days? Who would only buy one to flash maps and never use it for anything else?

Let's say you know nothing about tuning. If there is a shop near you, $400 for a custom tuned map from a great tuner will procure more power on the gas you use everyday for less money than an AP.

Let's say you know nothing about tuning and there is not a good shop near you. An AP would be hard to beat. You can be confident the map will be completely safe, but to say it is perfectly optimized to your car when they are all different is just plain wrong.

Buy what is right for you. Ecuflash was right for me, because it cost much less, is insanely well supported, and I can help tons of friends out with one laptop and one cable.

Seth

 

Exactly... who takes their car to a shop with no reputation or a bad reputation ? You dont have to understand tuning to see or feel results. Sometimes it is hit or miss. If the access port wasn't a proven option, would you still use it ? I'm assuming (again i know) you werent the test dummy for the access port, you probably read what they were capable of doing, and tried it correct ? Same scenario applies to custom tuning as well.

And did you seriously just post a graph comparison of 2 separate cars, with different mods, no boost showing as a comparison to prove that the OTS map is the way to go ? You could be that scenario as well that your tuner wasn't very competent.

Not to mention, that Red curve could use quite a bit of cleaning up as well.

 

Different cars do not correlate, period. Give me 20 minutes with that shelf tune car, I promise I can clean that curve up and increase max power with no knock and I am far from a professional tuner.

 

I 100% agree with the above comments and have never argued otherwise.
Sorry...busy day at work. The boost on the blue car was a tad higher and AFR a bit leaner. I will go dig up the charts when I get a chance.
Correlate exactly? No. Roughly correlate? Yes. Once both cars were pro-tuned the charts were damn near identical. I can get these charts too.

 

There is no point. In addition to being different cars, they have different parts.

The ideal thing to see is the red graph as it is in that link compared to the protuned version of that same car with identical mods on the same day.

 

AFR isn't showing up for the red car, but there's boost at least.

Same mods, different brands. Our theory in the power difference is the baffled/chambered Magnaflow catback vs. the straight-through Specialty-X (just a theory, no proof or definite claims).

 

Nobody is arguing that an OTS map is better than a custom tune from a good tuner, all we're saying is that all tuners are not equal and just because a tuner claims he is good and has internet hype to back him up does not mean he is truly qualified.

I am a firm believer in custom dyno tunes on my cars, I've never run an OTS map and never plan to. They do work though and they're a safe alternative for someone just looking for a basic setup.

 

This. Semantics, they are important.

So you agree that an OTS map will make more power, but your inflated cost figures are the only hold up?

OP2.0 cable: $169 (or free if your tuner will just flash you)
Dyno Tune specific to your vehicle and likely to produce more power with a competant tuner (or at least produce as much power): $200
Laptop: $100 (old craigslist) - $200 (new netbook, common price) - $1400 (alienware, since you are only using it for tuning your car you need the best of the best) .... or free, again if your tuner will just flash you... or borrow your neighbors.
Evoscan - $25 optional

$30 donation to tephra - That gets you 2 sets of maps right now and up to 9 in the near future, plus many other options that AP does not offer.

So, potential cost is $200 - $1825.

Granted, your investment does not have much resale value if you go openECU, however it can be 1/3 of the initial investment if you plan properly AND have more features.

Did we seriously start another one of these threads?

 

Yup, looks like it, time for it to end though I'm sure the OP has had his question answered with plenty of info to look into.

 

I never used it to dislike it, so i apologize if my comment came off the wrong way. It sounds like to me its basically a device that allows you to alter timing/ fuel/ etc.. Puts the user in a virtual sandbox when using its interface, while at the same time allowing the user to connect it to an external device such as a laptop, netbook, etc and extract / dump the rom image from it and adjust the xml/rom etc and then upload it back to the Cobb interface.. is this correct?

If so then yes, my comment was rather off grounds and i apologize. I dont have anything against Cobb, I run a Cobb turboback + downpipe and testpipe on my personal evo and love it.. Ive yet to hear a quieter/ better tone exhaust to date.

Im sure i could source a laptop, tactrix cable, evoscan tho cheaper then $600. The thing is, in order to get custom remote tuned safely you still need a good wideband so the prices would be really close if you were comparing the cobb AP to a custom remote tune + the hardware required in order to get that custom tune.

The outcome however would speak loud.. no off the shelf tune is going to come close to a custom tune if the tuner knows what hes doing and can properly use the dyno the way its meant to be used.

I didn't know my comment was going to cause an argument like this, I apologize again.

I fix other reputable tuners all the time, things change. weather, engine condition, quality of fuel, etc etc.. no one is perfect and can give the best tune. When a cars highly modified, timing and fuel are just a little piece of the puzzle as well.. you run into phantom knock issues which require the knock sensor to be recalibrated and many other things that you will normally not experience on a mildly modded vehicle.

 

This makes it sound like you are trying to talk opinionated about something you have little to no experience with.

To beat a dead horse and put this argument to bed:

People that say that the AP can make more power then EcuFlash or vice / versa actually have no real idea the capabilities of each device and improperly think the said device(s) dictate the tune quality.