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Question on E85 Tune poor MPG

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Old Jun 15, 2011, 07:25 PM
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E85 clearly gets less mileage than pump gas and provides less energy per gallon...this is a proven fact...I think the point razorlab is trying to make is the fact that with a proper tune for cruising and milage on E85 you should be able to easily get 18-19mpg...E85 can be tuned much more leaner than gasoline without the knocking or added amount of heat that would be associated with a pure gasoline burn at the same AFR levels...this is how you would effectively tune for milage under cruising conditions on E85...18-19mpg sounds bad in terms of gasoline mileage but in terms of E85 it is actually decent mileage
Old Jun 15, 2011, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 10isace
I'm getting 17-18mpg on my self tune/e85. I was getting 20-21 on 91 pump gas. After my first tune with e85 I was getting 15 mpg. Both e85 maps are great for WOT, but now I'm tuned for cruising and part throttle. I drive highway and in town and a lot of WOT when getting on the highway. What AFR's are you logging at cruise/part throttle/WOT?
which wideband are you using and what calibration are you using? Does it have a Lambda option?
Old Jun 15, 2011, 08:26 PM
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I got my IX tune from reese two weeks ago and as far as mpg goes, well it depends on the way that I drive. Like we have all been saying it does produce less mpg than 91 but I average around 16-17 when cruising but when I go to beast mode then its alot less.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by TurboTim06
E85 clearly gets less mileage than pump gas and provides less energy per gallon...this is a proven fact...I think the point razorlab is trying to make is the fact that with a proper tune for cruising and milage on E85 you should be able to easily get 18-19mpg...E85 can be tuned much more leaner than gasoline without the knocking or added amount of heat that would be associated with a pure gasoline burn at the same AFR levels...this is how you would effectively tune for milage under cruising conditions on E85...18-19mpg sounds bad in terms of gasoline mileage but in terms of E85 it is actually decent mileage
Ding Ding Ding.... Winner
Old Jun 16, 2011, 09:06 AM
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I found this the other day on the web. It might be helpful:


Efficiency:

Lets start off with some facts:

* You need 42% more flow derived from the difference in AFR at Lambda=1.

* A car straight converted to E85 without any other modifications will use 30 to a little over 35% more fuel. Since 42% bigger injectors are actually needed, but the fuel consumption is not 42% higher, you can see that the efficiency goes up.

* If a car tuned for gasoline use and high power is converted straight to E85, it will use more E85 at part throttle and less E85 at WOT than a car tuned for running only on E85.

* A car tuned only for E85 use and high power will use less E85 at part throttle and more E85 at WOT than the car that was initially tuned for gas and then converted to E85.

* An efficient engine can take advantage of a good tune and only use ~20-25% more fuel when running on E85 than on gasoline. That doesn't just have to do with energy content, but also the other properties of E85, like burn rate (which can use a more efficient ignition setting), octane number (can also use a more efficient ignition setting), and cooling properties (ultimately leads to a cooler combustion chamber and the possibility of a more efficient ignition setting).

Then you ask why?

Let's start with this...

Energy content by weight:
Gasoline: 46.4 MJ/Kg
E85: 33.1 MJ/Kg

Weight per volume:
Gasoline: 0.7329 Kg/L
E85: 0.7806 Kg/L

Energy content by volume:
Gasoline: 34 MJ/L
E85: 25.84 MJ/L

Some of the numbers here will be recognised from the previous statement:

You need 42% more volume of E85 to reach Lambda=1.

At Lambda=1 on E85, the energy content is 7.92% higher than on gasoline.

That is why a car that is converted straight to E85 doesn't consume 42% more fuel. You get more energy from E85 at the same Lambda. The cooling properties and slightly different burn rate also adds a positive effect on the fuel consumption here.

If you then tune the car to use all the properties of E85, it will be a lot more efficient and use even less fuel that a car converted straight to E85 (aka: a car tuned for gasoline, but equipped with bigger injectors to run E85).

When it comes to power:

This is basically just repeating what I said previously in the same post, but to clarify I will say it again.

On E85 you can use much richer mixtures when aiming for very high power. One of the advantages of E85 is the cooling properties since a lot more is injected. Because of that, you can run a much more advanced ignition setting.

Since the octane number is higher, you can also run a much more advanced ignition setting.

And the car will also develop more power because E85 will contain more energy at the same Lambda.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 09:10 AM
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So basically, E85 is a totally different fuel and needs to be tuned differently that gas does. In the end, you can get better mileage from E85 than just converting the AFR aspect of the car.

I drove around for a long time without tuning for Economy on my ethanol. I would get anywhere from 11 to 14 mpg. Now I'm in the 16+ range with a few tweaks. I decided to actually do something after price of E85 went from $2 to $3 a gallon.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Golden
So basically, E85 is a totally different fuel and needs to be tuned differently that gas does. In the end, you can get better mileage from E85 than just converting the AFR aspect of the car.
Yes, exactly, and exactly what my point was.

Originally Posted by Golden
I drove around for a long time without tuning for Economy on my ethanol. I would get anywhere from 11 to 14 mpg. Now I'm in the 16+ range with a few tweaks. I decided to actually do something after price of E85 went from $2 to $3 a gallon.
This data here is an excellent example of how proper tuning can net better mileage on E85.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 10:28 AM
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If you are running an E85 powered Evo, the real question is, why the hell do you care about mileage?

Mine is where it is, I don't really pay attention. On average I was 13-14mpg's overall, including traffic and stop and go and some freeway. If I tried I got over 18mpg's with freeway driving but I just don't care.

I guess it doesn't hurt to tune for mileage a bit, but if you are truly concerned with making power, mileage should be the absolute last thing to worry about.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by murlo26
If you are running an E85 powered Evo, the real question is, why the hell do you care about mileage?

Mine is where it is, I don't really pay attention. On average I was 13-14mpg's overall, including traffic and stop and go and some freeway. If I tried I got over 18mpg's with freeway driving but I just don't care.

I guess it doesn't hurt to tune for mileage a bit, but if you are truly concerned with making power, mileage should be the absolute last thing to worry about.
In some ways you are right.
If you want the extra performance, you are going to have to sacrifice the MPG. In exchange, you get a cheaper fuel with crazy anti-knock properties.

Do you also have a 93 octane tune? You can always run that around for a while and then if you know you will race, run down to empty and throw some E85 in.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by murlo26
If you are running an E85 powered Evo, the real question is, why the hell do you care about mileage?

Mine is where it is, I don't really pay attention. On average I was 13-14mpg's overall, including traffic and stop and go and some freeway. If I tried I got over 18mpg's with freeway driving but I just don't care.

I guess it doesn't hurt to tune for mileage a bit, but if you are truly concerned with making power, mileage should be the absolute last thing to worry about.
If you own a Evo, why care about mileage? The reality is, a large amount of owners do.

I do, because I'm a tuner and I can't leave well enough alone.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by razorlab
If you own a Evo, why care about mileage? The reality is, a large amount of owners do.

I do, because I'm a tuner and I can't leave well enough alone.
If I was an awesome tuner I'd be all over this as well, lol.

But most of us have to pay for tuning. I am not going to shell out another few hundred for another 1-2mpgs because odds are I will be back on the dyno before I would've saved enough to justify it for a part change or because I blew up another motor and need a fresh tune.

But I totally see your point Bryan. I am just saying mileage should be at the bottom of the list but its still on there
Old Jun 16, 2011, 01:08 PM
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Murlo - not all of us can afford to swap motors regularly. Engine efficiency may be lower on the list, but if the car is being DD'ed why would you leave anything on the table? I can understand if the cost of tuning outweighs the fuel savings but most of the smaller changes aren't rocket science... if they weren't included in your tune you didn't get a full tune. What you are saying is like suggesting "Why do I car about part throttle response, idle, a stereo, comfortable seats, or anything else? If it doesn't make power its not enough of a priority to worry about."

We are still burning these fuels, and though I think everyone should run a HFC at a minimum off track - we are still consuming that energy and dumping the waste into the air. It should be a concern for everyone because that energy waste is making your life slightly worse every day... not to mention your kids, etc.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fostytou
Murlo - not all of us can afford to swap motors regularly. Engine efficiency may be lower on the list, but if the car is being DD'ed why would you leave anything on the table? I can understand if the cost of tuning outweighs the fuel savings but most of the smaller changes aren't rocket science... if they weren't included in your tune you didn't get a full tune. What you are saying is like suggesting "Why do I car about part throttle response, idle, a stereo, comfortable seats, or anything else? If it doesn't make power its not enough of a priority to worry about."

We are still burning these fuels, and though I think everyone should run a HFC at a minimum off track - we are still consuming that energy and dumping the waste into the air. It should be a concern for everyone because that energy waste is making your life slightly worse every day... not to mention your kids, etc.
I think you are taking what I said a little farther than what I even implied.

I am not saying its not important, but honestly if you want MPG's you chose the wrong vehicle, especially if you are running an E85 powered evo. Obviously you care about performance and power and probably mash the gas quite a bit.

I can't afford to swap motors on a regular basis either trust me, I am not happy about my situation but that is neither here nor there.

I am just saying for 1-2MPG's it isn't the end of the world that people are implying. Seriously almost all of us get the gas mileage that is related to our driving habits not our tune. If you drive it like a race car, you will get bad mileage. If you drive it like a point A to point B car you will get better mileage.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fostytou
We are still burning these fuels, and though I think everyone should run a HFC at a minimum off track - we are still consuming that energy and dumping the waste into the air. It should be a concern for everyone because that energy waste is making your life slightly worse every day... not to mention your kids, etc.
This is going in a different direction, but those points are all true. I'm for a HFC and I'm for E85, not only for it's additional power, but also because it sends less money to the Sheiks. If the Evo had a bigger tank, it would have been a no-brainer, E85 all the way.
Old Jun 16, 2011, 08:57 PM
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Murlo, here, price per mile is actually cheaper on E85. 93 is really expensive and 91 is closer but still more expensive. It's only the crappy 10% E junk that is cheaper per mile, but there is no way you can run that in an Evo.

So... even with ****ty E85 mileage, I am still saving money.


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