I wouldnt touch rod blots if the pan is coming off then new pistons and rods are going in there ams and buschur told me the same thing and agree

 

^ what do you mean?

 

He saying that if hes gonna take apart the oil pan to do rod bolts he's not gonna stop there

 

Just so you guys know where I'm coming from when I say this crap so you don't think I'm some schmuck throwing out an unqualified opinion. I have caught flak for some of the things I've said because I am just another name on the internet saying bull****...and I don't want people to know who I am or am not. I am a shareholder in an engine shop that does mostly cylinder head development but we do a limited number of class specific race engines, currently holding 4 national records in their respectful classes. I am NOT an engine builder and spend a lot of time sitting behind a desk. I'm right sometimes, wrong sometimes, I have lots to learn from my peers and other EvoMers, but hey...file what I mention under "maybe he has a point". I'm human and say retarded **** sometimes too.

That said, I am also NOT an EvoM vendor and I want to respect those who are. There are some very good and qualified engine builders on this site, and then there are shops that think they can do it all from tuning your car, hanging fuzzy dice on the mirror...oh and building race engines If you are having an engine built, let an engine shop build it. If your "engine assembler" does not have the basic machines and tooling...a good seat and guide, valve grinder, rod hone, cylinder hone, reliable bore gauges mics and indicators, etc etc etc....then it isn't an engine shop. There are lots of vendors claiming to be engine builders and they take motors across the street to half *** general machine shops, then assemble them in their dirty car maintenance bays. If people want to know of some good engine shops, I will gladly make suggestions to those in your area that are NOT affiliated with me in any way. Again...I have zero intentions of getting into this market and not doing so won't change the street I live on. My only interest in EVOs is the one sitting in my garage What a great car to drive.


Now that my disclaimer is out of the way.....

-Do NOT take your pan off and replace the OEM rod bolts with ARP. That is half ***. That will not save your motor had you otherwise not done it. These are rods breaking, not rod bolts. They are either breaking from being overpowered, or extreme preignition. You can't compare one of these 650hp 35R dynos that makes a smooth gradual climb to that number to a smaller turbo (or in my case tons of nitrous) powerband that hits that motor with an extreme power surge at once. Stop looking at peak power output when trying to determine what the engine can handle. The ARP 2000s people are replacing OEM bolts with are a low end rod bolt anyway. You will more than likely do more damage in the process of half *** replacing bolts.

-Do NOT remove your OEM head bolts just to replace them with aftermarket. The OEM head bolts on most cars are just fine and we have used various ones over 1000hp. Now if you are taking apart your engine and rebuilding it, yes then you can replace the OEM ones with some good ARP or Cosworth head studs. They can be reused and that is convenient and cost effective down the road.

-On the same note as above, you do not need to spend the extra money on L19 studs. The standard ARP studs have been pushed over 60psi and well over 1000hp for years and years. People blowing head gaskets need to look elsewhere. It isn't the studs, it isn't because you didn't o-ring the block. That o-ring bull**** is a bandaid to another problem. 60, 70, 80 psi can be done on a flat deck motor with no issue if the machining and assembly is good. Flat deck, step deck, o-ring...it can all work.

-The stock main bolts are sufficient for any power level. If you do replace these, you need to check main clearances and determine if it needs an align hone. A lot of these newer aluminum blocks are not affected by the different bolt pulling on the metal differently than the OEM bolt, but some are. Check clearances, or have a competent engine builder that knows WTF they are doing and then you don't have to worry about anything.

-Cylinder Sleeves!!!!! Don't be afraid of the open deck design! It is well supported. I know of guys who have pushed open deck to well over 1000hp and many prefer it for expansion. That portion of this block is super strong in my opinion. If you are worried about it, have ERL put some of their sleeves in there.

-A generalization on rods. This is a huge generalization, but it works here in my shop. We have rules as to what amount of horsepower we will allow on a specific rod design. If I knew nothing about EVOs and what power people had made on stock motors, and someone brought me one of those OEM rods and asked what power I would allow on it, I would say no more than 100hp per cylinder. Life is limited beyond that and there is no room for error in a tune.

Below is an Eagle H-beam that I copied from Goodle images. I'm not taking anything off my own site for ID reasons. This represents a typical overseas manufactured H-beam rod that is very common and more affordable. In this class I would put a Manley Econo H-beam, Eagle, K-1, BC Econo, etc. Quality is good but in my shop we only allow 150hp per cylinder on this style of rod. Can they handle more, absolutely.


Below is a Manley Turbo Tuff and a Pauter. Some Carrillos, BC Pro, some Crower etc would fall into this category. This is the next step and with an ARP 2000 rod bolt we allow 200hp per cylinder. With an upgraded rod bolt 250+ per cylinder. We have never hurt one. I love the Pauter and turbo tuff.



Last...a GRP aluminum pictured below. Not all aluminum rods are equal, but they are all decent. Some of the companies make them thin in areas they can't be thin, and overbuild them in areas where they don't need to be. We use GRP because they do a good job. I know a lot of guys are using aluminum in street cars and daily drivers...that is ok as long as you are in a warmer climate. They can last up to 40,000 miles. If you are going to be starting your car up on some real cold days, I highly recommend against it. We use these in dedicated drag racing motors, some land speed, and nothing else for liability reasons. Power level depends on the design. If you are in doubt, get one of the previous rods above.


Pistons. I see laughable piston to wall clearances from "professional" engine builders ALL THE TIME. They see a little scuffing on a piston and some cylinder wear and think it is from a piston being too tight in the bore. Solution? Run more p2w!! Wrong. A lot of these shelf pistons have some minor design flaws in the taper (or lack thereof) at the top of the piston, and it can cause some deceiving wear. Get with a real engine builder, and you won't have any RETARDED piston to wall. Your motor will live longer and make more power.


I now stand ready to be blasted and attacked, and probably for good reason

 

great great info...i dont see a reason for someone to flame u...its good to know for someone like me who is in the process of getting an evo, never dealt with a boosted car or awd for that matter. most cars are similar but what one can handle stock and what another can is deff different...

im really interested in what the baseline is for safety when it comes to pushing a completely stock engine...im interested in a fast daily driver...not an all out drag set up.

 

good info in this thread and now that Im working on my buildup everything I can learn helps out.

 

nope Performance Motorsports..stock crank, stock sleeve. In 2003-04ish there was not anything available for the engine. We had to get Ferrea to make everything. Seen spotty reliability.

 

Was that the silver car that was coming out to the NOPI races? That MFer ended up going pretty fast on a DOT...7.9 or 8.0 I think on a BFG.

 

that's the one..it's been a few years, but I think 8.20@179 was the fastest it went. Stock crank and sleeve, Carillo rod, Weisco piston, HeadGames ported head with stock size Ferrea valves and George Ioannou made some headers to hang the twin 67's off of. The car went from going 10.40's to 8.20's in a month! Darton came out with a sleeve not to long after that car ran, but they retired it to run the ProRWD car

 

Awesome, educational post. I'm glad I changed my mind and ordered the Manley rods and JE pistons instead of doing rod bolts. 800hp is far more than I'll run...plenty of headroom there.

 

ETS put a hta 3586r kit in a bone stock engine evo x and made around 600 whp and it's not blow up yet

maybe michael@ETS can jump in on this.

 

And your build continues to grow, lol...geez

 

Subscribed for more info, thanks for posting guys

 

If that is their shop car, it didn't last very long at that power level. Broke a rod bolt.....or was it just a rod like the rest of us HMMMM?

You should be able to make more "power" with a 35R because the curve is gradual. Some of the bolt on aftermarket turbos should be ok also ESPECIALLY on pump gas...because frankly the torque on them sucks the big one compared to the stock turbo. They look pretty cool for racing dyno charts though

 

That car was rowdy. I remember watching it run 11s then came back east for another race and saw it run 8s. It was shocking. What is Ioannou up to these days? It would be nice to get people like him and Ara back out racing rice burners again. Things are picking back up.