Coils / offset suggestions
How do Swifts (or any other lowering spring, for that matter) "take corner weighting into consideration"? Lowering springs can take front/back weight distribution into account, but not corner weights.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,235
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From: PA
This whole thread is a huge overthinking of what is needed for a street car.
In my opinion, all you need are tires that roll and balance out, brakes that stop, and a suspension that keeps the chassis suspended.
This dude wants looks/stance for a daily driver. Throw springs on it and call it a day.
In my opinion, all you need are tires that roll and balance out, brakes that stop, and a suspension that keeps the chassis suspended.
This dude wants looks/stance for a daily driver. Throw springs on it and call it a day.
Good stuff. Where would you put fortunes?
Rules of Suspension
1). Stiff is not always fast.
2). JDM sucks.
3). Less is more.
Lowering Springs: Notice I never mentioned them? Good. That's because they're awfully overrated for something that accomplishes a lot more bad than good. Here are the Pros and the Cons.
First, the Pros:
-Lowers the car which lowers the cg
-Increases spring rate
Now, the Cons:
-Lowers the car too much 99% of the time
-Eats up precious bump travel, reducing ride quality and suspension compliance to zero.
-Does not increase the spring rate enough to really matter
-Reduces shock life substantially
-Doesn't always take corner weighting into consideration (Swift does..yay Swift)
-Have yet to show much of a decrease in lap times.
Coilovers: Asian coilovers are valved to have high rebound in the low speed and high speed area of the shock dyno. This is bad for ride quality and bump absorption. This means that the tire will leave the pavement over bumps on track. This is a loss of traction.
Asian coilovers also do not offer much strut travel, which when combined with the valving, mean a lot of areas on bumpy roads or tracks where the damper is not keeping the tire to the pavement.
Asian coilovers love dual-height adjustability. It means nothing for performance since there isn't enough strut travel to make use of it. Maybe some inboard spring clearance could be had, but that's not a sure thing.
Asian coilovers are expensive despite all of these downsides. For some reason, people run them under the pretense that they're decent. Not sure where that came from.
BC Racing, etc. coilovers. Cheap and effective for autocrossing. Not comfortable on the GD/GR for the street and will overheat on the track. Camber plates rust out and the bearing will disintegrate after 6 months to a year. You get what you pay for, but if you are smart enough to avoid lowering springs but can't afford good coilovers, you buy these and accept the drawbacks rather than pay twice as much for Tein, Cusco, HKS, etc. and think its good because of the brand name and price while receiving similar product.
Bilstein PSS-9 coilovers. Good for street driving, but the adjuster is inaccurate and thus this system is ultimately limited. Still a lot more comfortable than JDM and worth the money.
KW V3, RCE T2, etc. The standard for a track coilover that retains some street comfort. The problem with the KW V3 platform is that the high speed portion of the shock valving cannot be changed with the adjusters, which means that no matter how much you dial in the system for 99% of the time, that 1% big bump in the road will make you go crazy.
AST 4000 and 5000 series. Excellent choice for comfort and track. Race valving can be manipulated to give an amazing setup at slightly less than premium pricing.
JRZ. If you want to win, you buy JRZ, period. I didn't mention this brand before, but we're not talking about racing on a budget here, we're talking about shutting up your entire car class and the exotic owners that hate your spoiler. Cha-ching.
Ohlins. The DFV has a reliable adjuster that can properly influence both low speed and high speed valving. The problem is that the valving out of the box could use some work. The solution is to call up one of the many Ohlins revalving centers in the U.S. to fix that. Then you're on another level from nearly everyone else with quality components to back it up.
Penske. File under JRZ/serious tracking. Will crap all over everybody else since it will be custom built to your application and cost big bucks.
Koni. And finally, everyone's favorite budget shock that can be revalved to compete with anything...the Koni. Match this up to ground control springs and perches and you'll be light-years ahead of most on a budget setup.
1). Stiff is not always fast.
2). JDM sucks.
3). Less is more.
Lowering Springs: Notice I never mentioned them? Good. That's because they're awfully overrated for something that accomplishes a lot more bad than good. Here are the Pros and the Cons.
First, the Pros:
-Lowers the car which lowers the cg
-Increases spring rate
Now, the Cons:
-Lowers the car too much 99% of the time
-Eats up precious bump travel, reducing ride quality and suspension compliance to zero.
-Does not increase the spring rate enough to really matter
-Reduces shock life substantially
-Doesn't always take corner weighting into consideration (Swift does..yay Swift)
-Have yet to show much of a decrease in lap times.
Coilovers: Asian coilovers are valved to have high rebound in the low speed and high speed area of the shock dyno. This is bad for ride quality and bump absorption. This means that the tire will leave the pavement over bumps on track. This is a loss of traction.
Asian coilovers also do not offer much strut travel, which when combined with the valving, mean a lot of areas on bumpy roads or tracks where the damper is not keeping the tire to the pavement.
Asian coilovers love dual-height adjustability. It means nothing for performance since there isn't enough strut travel to make use of it. Maybe some inboard spring clearance could be had, but that's not a sure thing.
Asian coilovers are expensive despite all of these downsides. For some reason, people run them under the pretense that they're decent. Not sure where that came from.
BC Racing, etc. coilovers. Cheap and effective for autocrossing. Not comfortable on the GD/GR for the street and will overheat on the track. Camber plates rust out and the bearing will disintegrate after 6 months to a year. You get what you pay for, but if you are smart enough to avoid lowering springs but can't afford good coilovers, you buy these and accept the drawbacks rather than pay twice as much for Tein, Cusco, HKS, etc. and think its good because of the brand name and price while receiving similar product.
Bilstein PSS-9 coilovers. Good for street driving, but the adjuster is inaccurate and thus this system is ultimately limited. Still a lot more comfortable than JDM and worth the money.
KW V3, RCE T2, etc. The standard for a track coilover that retains some street comfort. The problem with the KW V3 platform is that the high speed portion of the shock valving cannot be changed with the adjusters, which means that no matter how much you dial in the system for 99% of the time, that 1% big bump in the road will make you go crazy.
AST 4000 and 5000 series. Excellent choice for comfort and track. Race valving can be manipulated to give an amazing setup at slightly less than premium pricing.
JRZ. If you want to win, you buy JRZ, period. I didn't mention this brand before, but we're not talking about racing on a budget here, we're talking about shutting up your entire car class and the exotic owners that hate your spoiler. Cha-ching.
Ohlins. The DFV has a reliable adjuster that can properly influence both low speed and high speed valving. The problem is that the valving out of the box could use some work. The solution is to call up one of the many Ohlins revalving centers in the U.S. to fix that. Then you're on another level from nearly everyone else with quality components to back it up.
Penske. File under JRZ/serious tracking. Will crap all over everybody else since it will be custom built to your application and cost big bucks.
Koni. And finally, everyone's favorite budget shock that can be revalved to compete with anything...the Koni. Match this up to ground control springs and perches and you'll be light-years ahead of most on a budget setup.
Last edited by jdm_ed; Feb 12, 2012 at 07:52 AM.
I cannot resist the temptation to comment on this any longer.
The above is not the problem with most "Asian" shocks. The problem with most "Asian" shocks is that they are not digressive in bump. This, for example, is the main difference between the KYBs on a GSR and the Bilsteins on an MR. They have rather similar damping in rebound, but the Bilstein is digressive in bump while the KYB is not.
And this fits with the general rule about what most people mean by "ride quality": that it is more dependent on high-speed bump than anything else.
Oh, and no-one cares about high-speed rebound. That's why is it never adjustable. The only way that you'd ever experience high-speed rebound is if someone yanked down on a wheel. To even talk about high-speed rebound is silly.
edit: for completeness' sake, yes, excessive amounts of low-speed rebound can ruin the ride quality, but only when the shock has so much rebound that it causes the spring to "pack down"; as long as you don't go that far - and very few "Asian" shocks have enough rebound to pack down even an OE spring - you will not have problems with ride quality due to excessive rebound
And this fits with the general rule about what most people mean by "ride quality": that it is more dependent on high-speed bump than anything else.
Oh, and no-one cares about high-speed rebound. That's why is it never adjustable. The only way that you'd ever experience high-speed rebound is if someone yanked down on a wheel. To even talk about high-speed rebound is silly.
edit: for completeness' sake, yes, excessive amounts of low-speed rebound can ruin the ride quality, but only when the shock has so much rebound that it causes the spring to "pack down"; as long as you don't go that far - and very few "Asian" shocks have enough rebound to pack down even an OE spring - you will not have problems with ride quality due to excessive rebound
Last edited by Iowa999; Feb 12, 2012 at 10:37 AM.
So basically you saying that springs say like swift which if i ever did get springs they would be swift most likely are better a mid range coil. What the post is about I am willing to spend about 1700ish max for the best i can get. I just don't see how $300 springs will be better then coils. Yes i know its a DD car and i can see your point of view but i rather spend 1700 instead of 300 unless springs are better. Please explain and ignore the fact that it is a dd. I respect everything you saying as it brightens my knowledge. I know how to rebuild engines and everything with the engine basically but when it comes to wheels size/offsets/coils/springs that just goes right over my head because I didn't have any type personal experience with it yet. I rebuilt my old motors but suspension was always stock. So as i said before i respect everything you're saying so I am not arguing with you if i came across that way. Thanks
I agree with my BFF. 
Good springs (GTWorks, Swift) and OE shocks are often better than crappy coilovers, especially if you have good shocks to start with (such as the Bilsteins from an MR).
Good springs (GTWorks, Swift) and OE shocks are often better than crappy coilovers, especially if you have good shocks to start with (such as the Bilsteins from an MR).
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