GraphiteMR

iTrader: (1)

I have heard of the LM-1's high failure rate, which is why I bought the zeitronix also. For $279 I can log= RPM / AFR / Lambda / Boost and knock sensor voltage out of the box. I run an AEM standalone so I just shared the boost sensor which is the same one as AEM uses and saved over $100.

With the Innovate you need like a $250 LM3 auxbox. A big ripoff as far as I am concerned for basically the same features Zeitronix has out of the box on the most basic of models for $279.

4cefed

iTrader: (9)

Innovative

GraphiteMR

iTrader: (1)

First of all, you DO NOT NEED A LAPTOP for the Zeitronix. Any serious tuner has a palm pilot or datalogger for logging timing. ZEITRONIX is compatible with your PalmPilot or PDA!



Even the alarms and triggers are compatible!


Unlike the "I" product, you DON'T NEED A $250 LMA3 Auxbox!
An inexpensive $39 software for your PDA has you logging on the fly. With the money you save over the $250 auxbox you could have your $77 EGT and $109 boost sensor! WooHoo!


In response to the MTS stuff;
Sweet, just what I need a $1485+shipping wideband with no warnings lights, audio alarms, safeguard triggers and 3x the price of Zeitronix.

LC-1 $199
XD-16 REQUIRED for gauge display $249
DL32 for logging data without laptop $499
Digital media card 256MB as pictured $105 from ebay
LMA-3 ADD-ON box REQUIRED for boost/rpm/egt logging $249
EGT probe $75
3.5bar medical grade precision MAP sensor like Zeitronix $109
Grand Total $1485 and slower sample rate of Zeitronix!

Sounds like a great buy!

Evo_Jay

iTrader: (17)

You didnt comment on all my points.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

It seems you have a reading disability, since I already mentioned that the Innovate is MORE EXPENSIVE than the Z unit. I listed that in my initial post on the subject.

And for the record you can log w/o the auxbox. I am using the $99 LMA-2 to log MAP, RPM, AFR, and soon I will log TPS, Knock voltage and have one port left to spare.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=248&page=1

This is the unit that I have. It costs $430. I simply added a MAP sensor for $75 and I am logging away.

The Z unit has limits the Innovate can be daisied in almost infinite varieties.

I also use a pocket logger to log timing separately.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

First, please show evidence of the so-called failure rate. Any links?

Second, you can log with the LMA-2 which is $99. You do not need the Aux box. The LMA-2 has five ports that can log. I am logging MAP, RPM, and will log TPS, Knock voltage as well as speed sensor and injector duty cycle. I simply tap into the ECU pin and confiugre the the LMA-2 to measure.

Third, I already mentioned that the Z unit is cheaper than the Innovate unit in my initial post.

ScrappyJack

iTrader: (1)

I see a lot of misrepresentative pricing being thrown out in this thread. It's a shame that people get so wrapped up in personal preferences that they can't recognize that almost ALL of the WB units have pros and cons. One is not necessarilly better than another - but it might be a better fit for you.

You cannot fairly compare the price of an LM-1 to the price of the ZT-2 alone. You cannot fairly compare the price of the ZT-2 by itself to the price of the XD-16 standalone kit.

Most people on here talk about the ZT-2 with LCD display, MAP sensor, and EGT sensor. This is what RRE calls their "Stage Eleventeen" package and what TTP-E refers to as their "Full Works" package. That package runs closer to $550 advertised.

The most comparable kit from Innovate would probably be the XD-16 plus LMA-3. With that setup, you can log MAP (only a 3BAR absolute sensor), CHT or EGT, RPM, Acceleration (Gs), and Injector Duty Cycle (or Dwell). Alternatively, there are 5 external inputs for connecting external sensors in place of the internal sensors (for things like TPS or ignition timing or fuel pressure). That package has an MSRP of $650 but can be had for significantly less from the bigger Innovate dealers. I imagine it will still be more expensive than the Zeitronix.

Compared to the full boogie Zeitronix package, the Innovate package will have more features, a higher price, a lower-reading MAP sensor, and no display for Lambda, boost, or EGT. It will also have a lower data display rate (probably related to the low response time of the Bosch sensor).

I am confused about your case. With the AEM EMS, all you need is the WB controller and sensor. You could get the LC1 with Bosch sensor for $200 or less, the ZT-2 with Bosch sensor for $279 or less, or the FJO single-channel controller with NTK sensor for about $500 (about $370 with Bosch sensor). All of those prices are assuming no display.

You don't need any auxillary equipment to log anything if you have the AEM EMS. Even the highest sample rate WB controller software (the Zeitronix or FJO depending on computer used) is going to pale in comparison to the AEM EMS internal logging (usually well over 200 s/sec). On top of the sample rate, you will be able to log actual knock sensor voltage without requiring some sort of buffer, you can log ignition timing, AIT, TPS, coolant temp, and a ton more sensors that none of the controllers currently log without add-ons. Hell, if you want, you can add oil pressure, oil temp, and just about any other sensor you can think of with the AEM EMS.

In my opinion (and that of some of the tuners I respect the most), the AEM EMS is almost worth getting just for the data acquisition.

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

"I" brand lm1 is a temporary install using the cig lighter and a 4.5 lb bulky box and an add on awkward cable. The sensor needs to be recalibrated periodically while the ZEITRONIX is set it and forget it, self calibrating circuitry.

If people think carrying around a 4.5 pound box, tying up their cigarette lighter port, adding another add on awkward cable and paying $430 for the same features as the ZEITRONIX unit includes without bulky add-ons and for $279, then so help them.

Zeitronix is designed for PERMANENT INSTALL

Fully digital, smallest Wideband O2 controller in the world!

Zt-2 is about the size of 1" thick business card.
Extremely compact design for installation where space is a premium.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

Few things to comment on:

1. You are a vendor for the unit, so you have a vested interest in hyping the unit in order to sell more. Let the end users comment.

2. It is a good thing that the LM-1 needs to be caliberated. If the sensor is not caliberated it will give you a false reading. The LM-1 will give an error reading rather than give a false reading. The Z unit will continue to give the false reading and will not tell you that you need to caliberate. This link explains it.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=1627

You also make it seem that it is a chore to caliberate. You can caliberate the sensor with the sensor in the downpipe. There is a BLACK button on the LM-1 that syas "CALIBERATE."

3. You have a choice either carry the box that allows you to log on the fly or carry a lap top everytime you want to log. Unlike Evo_kid, not all of us are blessed by living near a private deserted road. I live in a large city and the best places to log on are freeway on ramps. I do that whenever the opportunity arises. I cannot possibly carry a lap top with me all the time and have to open it and recall the software and navigate a cursor inorder to log and do all that while driving as I get ready to drive the on-ramp There is a BIG RED button on the LM-1. Press and it logs, press agian and it stops.

Now that I added the XD-16 I have the LM-1 put away and I log by pressing the little button on the XD-16

4. I have already conceded that the Z unit is cheaper. You keep beating this dead horse. I mentioned that in my initial post. Let me say it again: THE Z UNIT IS CHEAPER THAN THE LM-1. If you are concerned about price, then get the Z unit. If you want a unit that has almost limitless expandability with new products coming into the market as we speak, great customer support, used by Mustang Dyno to measure their AFR, and won the SEMA award, then get the Innovate. To me price is no object. If price was an issue, I would not have bought the Evo to begin with.

5. You do not need to use the cig lighter. You can use any 12 volt power source. The cig lighter is for convenience. Infact, Klaus recommends against using the cig lighter since these voltage outputs tend to be poorly grounded. It is refreshing to read Klaus's posts since he is critical of the cig lighter as a power source. When someone critiques their own product it adds to their credibility.

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

Few things to comment on:

1. You are a vendor for the unit, so you have a vested interest in hyping the unit in order to sell more. Let the end users comment.
If you ever become the moderator for the forums, then feel free to tell the members who and who cannot post.

2. It is a good thing that the LM-1 needs to be caliberated. If the sensor is not caliberated it will give you a false reading. The LM-1 will give an error reading rather than give a false reading. The Z unit will continue to give the false reading and will not tell you that you need to caliberate. This link explains it.
That link did not explain anything. Just scare tactics. Central Florida Turbo has multiple dead units Innovate refuses to warranty. If calibration was the answer their units would read correctly and would not require warranty as they state.

3. You have a choice either carry the box that allows you to log on the fly or carry a lap top everytime you want to log. Unlike Evo_kid, not all of us are blessed by living near a private deserted road. I live in a large city and the best places to log on are freeway on ramps. I do that whenever the opportunity arises. I cannot possibly carry a lap top with me all the time and have to open it and recall the software and navigate a cursor inorder to log. There is a BIG RED button on the LM-1. Press and it logs. Now that I added the XD-16 I have the LM-1 put away and I log by pressing the little button on the XD-16
Once again I have to remind you that you are beating a dead horse. The "I" unit has a $430 cost and 4.5lb buky box that cannot be mounted discretely while I tell you once again that ZEITRONIX IS PALM PDA COMPATIBLE! $39 software and you can log to your hearts content including RPM, BOOST, LAMBDA, AUX1 without the need for further COSTLY add on adapter pieces or a laptop. Furthermore the safeguards for TPS, BOOST, AFR, TPS, RPM or EGT can be set up, alarms set, failsafes set up all with the PALM PDA as well. ALKY injection users have a huge safety margin with these safeguard features.

4. I have already conceded that the Z unit is cheaper. You keep beating this dead horse. I mentioned that in my initial post. Let me say it again: THE Z UNIT IS CHEAPER THAN THE LM-1

We can rephase that to the Zeitronix is a better value, more features out of the box, weighs 2.6 OUNCES! and can be installed virtually anywhere with no need to screw around with cablibrations that are not required with the ZEITRONIX.

5. You do not need to use the cig lighter. You can use any 12 volt power source. The cig lighter is for convenience. Infact, Klaus recommends against using the cig lighter since these voltage outputs tend to be poorly grounded. It is refreshing to read Klaus's posts since he is critical of the cig lighter as a power source. When someone critiques their own product it adds to their credibility.
He is so involved that he uses a proxy to post on his behalf instead of an authorized knowledgable dealer. As far as I can tell you could be Klaus himself posting under a fake screen name.

The owner of ZEITRONIX is a member of evolutionm.net, a die hard DSM racer and has a vested interest in the the 4g63. This is who I put my trust in. Especially when my local Innovate dealer tells me not to buy the "I" product because they don't honor warranties. He has also gone onto recommending zeitronix units for meth injection application even though he does not sell them himself.

My latest encounter with Zeitronix was involving damage from user install error as they sliced through an LCD wire while custom mounting the LCD. It was clear as day to me that the user messed up the install. Hell I sent it to Zbigniew anyhow and guess what, he replaced it free of charge.

Innovate would have still been making excuses as to why it is not their responsibility.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

I am not telling you not to post. I am saying you have a vested interest in selling the Z unit since you make money off it. There is something called conflict of interest here. You will not say anything bad about the Z unit since you are an authorized dealer of said unit. You must hype it as much as you can so you can make the sale. This fact undermines your credibility on this matter. If you have any independent tests on both units then please post a link.

Did you bother read the posts in the thread? It is a three page for and against caliberation. It is a debate between two end users. One of them (Mike) happens to be an engineer and knows his stuff far more than you do.

Why don't you go and get an account and debate the merits and demerits of caliberation with them? I would love to see you debate them. Will you do it? Go ahead and prove them wrong? Saying that it is a bunch of scare tactics is not a legitimate response.

I am sorry but my PDA is already occuppied logging timing. I know from the pocketlogger software that the more parameters you log, the less data points you will get. I have tried logging rpm, O2, timing, TPS in with the pocket logger and it slowed down significantly. Now I only log timing and it picks up way more data points.

If I log with the PDA the data that comes from the Z unit as well as timing from the logger itself I seriously doubt that I would get a lot of data points.


If money is an object to you, then by all means get the Z unit. Money is not an issue to me. As for the caliberation, please go ahead and sign an account on the innovate forum and debate the engineers who post there on the merits of caliberation. Prove them wrong.

This is so funny, more conspiracy theories Just google my name NAJI DAHI and you will find that I am not Klaus Almendinger. Nor am I a proxy. I am an end user. That is it.

Quote:

Especially when my local Innovate dealer tells me not to buy the "I" product because they don't honor warranties. He has also gone onto recommending zeitronix units for meth injection application even though he does not sell them himself.

Please post links of Innovate not taking responsibility for warranty claims. Show me your evidence. Since you are a Z unit dealer, you lack credibility.

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

I am not telling you not to post. I am saying you have a vested interest in selling the Z unit since you make money off it. There is something called conflict of interest here. You will not say anything bad about the Z unit since you are an authorized dealer of said unit. You must hype it as much as you can so you can make the sale. This fact undermines your credibility on this matter. If you have any independent tests on both units then please post a link.
[/b]

When you have ANY experience with the ZEITRONIX at ALL, please post the info.

Did you bother read the posts in the thread? It is a three page for and against caliberation. It is a debate between two end users. One of them (Mike) happens to be an engineer and knows his stuff far more than you do.

I could care less why an Innovate NEEDS calibration. My times and whp speak for themselves. Never had an engine failure of any kind while using risky fuels, boost and oxygenates while on stock motor. Does Mike, race?

Why don't you go and get an account and debate the merits and demerits of caliberation with them? I would love to see you debate them. Will you do it? Go ahead and prove them wrong? Saying that it is a bunch of scare tactics is not a legitimate response.
[/b]
It is for me. What I know is that it is not required of the ZEITRONIX unit and I have hours upon hours of datalogged consistant AFR's. Why would I debate why another product requires constant calibration?

I am sorry but my PDA is already occuppied logging timing. I know from the pocketlogger software that the more parameters you log, the less data points you will get. I have tried logging rpm, O2, timing, TPS in with the pocket logger and it slowed down significantly. Now I only log timing and it picks up way more data points.
Well you are as far behind the curve than Innovate than as any competant Evo tuner is using EvoScan these days so they can obtain IPW, Actual knock "counts", IGNITION TIMING and other relavant data. It is the most cutting edge technology available in datalogging and only costs $15. Since you are logging Evoscan on your laptop, it should be easy as pie to plug in the ZEITRONIX serial cable and not only log the 6 parameters at 74 samples per second, per parameter, but also log ZEITRONIX AFR through EvoScan in addition to the other 20+ parameters as they have had it in their software from the inception.

If I log with the PDA the data that comes from the Z unit as well as timing from the logger itself I seriously doubt that I would get a lot of data points.

[/b]
If money is an object to you, then by all means get the Z unit. Money is not an issue to me. As for the caliberation, please go ahead and sign an account on the innovate forum and debate the engineers who post there on the merits of caliberation. Prove them wrong.
Yes, money is no object to any Evo owner so we should all spend more than is necessary for an inferior wideband...

Go buy a Murcialago then if you have bottomless pockets...

[/b]
This is so funny, more conspiracy theories Just google my name NAJI DAHI and you will find that I am not Klaus Almendinger. Nor am I a proxy. I am an end user. That is it.

I would hope that there would be no need to hide behind a fake screen name.

Please post links of Innovate not taking responsibility for warranty claims. Show me your evidence. Since you are a Z unit dealer, you lack credibility.

I stated the name of the Innovate dealer that provided the info. That is more than I was willing to do in the past. That is all the anyone needs to verify its authenticity.

You are the one with 2 feedbacks, and we are the one with 120+, 100% positive.

We lack credibility... Pleaaaaasee....

ScrappyJack

iTrader: (1)

I don't think comparing the LM-1 with the ZT-2 is the best comparison. If you are going to leave the add-ons like display, EGT, and MAP sensor out of it, I think a better comparison would be the ZT-2 (wideband controller only with WB O2 sensor) vs the LC-1 (wideband controller only with WB O2 sensor).

Then, I believe, you are looking at $279 for the ZT-2 with sensor vs $200 for the LC-1 with sensor.

The LM-1 includes a display. Therefore, if you were to compare that to the Zeitronix product line, I think the more fair comparison would be the LM-1 ($349) vs the ZT-2 + LCD display ($394).

If a person wants to use the LM-1 instead of the XD-16 Standalone (LC-1 + XD-16 gauge), you could compare the LM-1 + LMA-3 package ($589) vs the Zeitronix "Full Works/Stage Eleventeen" package ($550).

Those are much better comparisons in both terms of price point and features.

A couple of times it seems like people have implied that you can log RPM, boost, AFR, and EGT for $279 with the Zeitronix products. I don't think that is an accurate representation.

nixx

iTrader: (2)

For me, the Zeitronix ZT-2 WB02 with LCD, EGT and MAP sensor was the best choice and I've had zero problems. Almost everybody that I've met that sees my setup wants the same for themself. I wanted the ability to tune my car myself and datalog all the important information I needed as well as have a display for immediate "on-the-fly" monitoring. I use ECU+ to datalog at 25 samples per second Timing, knock voltage, fuel info, AFR, MAF frequency, RPM, etc... I have a "live" visual indicator with my ZT2 LCD of AFR, Boost and EGT.. which is fed to my ECU+. If I want to, I can hook up a Palm device to my ECU+ and log all these inputs to my heart's content.

Also, somebody mentioned the screen being hard to read.. Well, in certain bright-light situations It can be hard to read. It seems as if the shiny-reflective coating on the LCD screen reflects what the driver may be wearing in certain light situations- but this is very rare. The second you turn and the light isn't shining in that particular direction, it's back to normal. The numbers on the digital screen are, imo, about as large as the numbers on your tach. If that's too small.. well.. your tach is useless as well.

+1 for the Zeitronix.

my zt2 setup below. easy to remove.. leaves no marks.

Soon2BEVO

iTrader: (41)

Zeitronix is badass. If you just want WB02, cant go wrong with an AEM WB02 for $250shipped either