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Intakes, Inductions Boxes, Maf Pipes... OH MY!!

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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:10 AM
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Intakes, Inductions Boxes, Maf Pipes... OH MY!!
Recently I have been able to tune a few different EVO8 with supposed “Stage II” Mods. The intakes that have been tested were the ARC Induction Box, HKS, RMR and Injen. All of these systems make the car run ridiculously lean under boost. It wasn’t common to see 13.1 afr at 20 psi of boost at 3500 rpm. The last customer I had come in made 210whp on another shops dyno because of this lean condition. Once he was tuned he made his normal 285 whp for the Stage II like modification. The end result was a happy customer and car than ran a lot better than when he arrived.

Another thing I noticed was that maf hz readings were very low. With that said it became very apparent that these car running other intakes are ingesting un-metered air causing the engine to run lean. To get these car to run any where near ideal I am having to add 15 points of fuel at from 0 rpm to 2500 rpm tapering to about + 9 by 3200 rpm to get to a desired 11.4 – 11.5 afr.

I just wanted to give you guys a heads up. Each car turns out to be slightly different for these kinds of mods which make it very hard devise a base map and say ok this is safe. In the most extreme cases I have been up to +17 points to get a desired afr.

This is just something to be aware of when selecting intakes and things.

Jermaine~
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:32 AM
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Yep, this is what I had been observing for quite some time.. Plus the anomolous MAF readings and stalling due to less restricted airflow traveling back through the MAF sensor from the turbo (surge) or BOV recirculation..

Another anomolous problem is RPM's climbing (significantly) between shifts with aftermarket BOV's..

Amazing eh?
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Yep, this is what I had been observing for quite some time.. Plus the anomolous MAF readings and stalling due to less restricted airflow traveling back through the MAF sensor from the turbo (surge) or BOV recirculation..

Another anomolous problem is RPM's climbing (significantly) between shifts with aftermarket BOV's..

Amazing eh?
Amazing, NO... Disturbing yes. Even for those running on the stock ecu because i have watch the stock ecu audibly knock and keep advancing under these lean conditions.

Take a look at this map for
HKS exhaust cat back,Apexi down pipe 3",Stainless 02 racing housing and exhaust manifold,HKS super suction intake,HKS SSV blow off,HKS adjustible cam gears,HKS intake cam shaft 264,HKS exhaust cam shaft 272,Perrin fuel rail,Walbro 255 fuel pump and TURBO XS UTEC. + 680cc Inj. Injector Scaling set to 550/550
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Last edited by Imprezd; Jan 10, 2005 at 09:42 AM.
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:38 AM
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Here's one of my earlier fuel maps that experienced a similar anomoly though not as lean with a buschur MAF pipe and filter and stock MAF sensor.. I no longer experience these anomolous readings with my blowthrough sensor but I did have to add fuel due to the MAF sensor not ramping as quickly as the stock MAF did.. As you can see I had to add a bit of fuel, but nowhere near as much as the intakes you were looking at.. What I did notice is that the two different intakes I tried, the Buschur had the least amount of turbulence (and hence unmetered air) compared to other products. (BTW this was a rough map to get the fuel curve in check with a stock MAF sensor, hence no smoothing on the load sites)

Code:
Fuel Map
      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]
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      [0]    [3.5]    [3.5]    [3.5]    [3.5]    [3.5]    [3.5]    [3.5]    [3.5]    [3.5]    [3.5]
      [0]      [4]      [4]      [4]      [4]      [4]      [4]      [4]      [4]      [4]      [4]
      [0]    [4.5]    [4.5]    [4.5]    [4.5]    [4.5]    [4.5]    [4.5]    [4.5]    [4.5]    [4.5]
      [0]      [5]      [5]      [5]      [5]      [5]      [5]      [5]      [5]      [5]      [5]
      [0]    [4.6]    [4.6]    [4.6]    [4.6]    [4.6]    [4.6]    [4.6]    [4.6]    [4.6]    [4.6]
      [0]    [4.2]    [4.2]    [4.2]    [4.2]    [4.2]    [4.2]    [4.2]    [4.2]    [4.2]    [4.2]
      [0]    [3.8]    [3.8]    [3.8]    [3.8]    [3.8]    [3.8]    [3.8]    [3.8]    [3.8]    [3.8]
      [0]    [3.4]    [3.4]    [3.4]    [3.4]    [3.4]    [3.4]    [3.4]    [3.4]    [3.4]    [3.4]
      [0]      [3]      [3]      [3]      [3]      [3]      [3]      [3]      [3]      [3]      [3]
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Last edited by MalibuJack; Jan 10, 2005 at 09:42 AM.
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:40 AM
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Hmm.. its interesting to note that at higher RPM's the compensations were nearly identical.. So its definitely a MAF anomoly and each unit seems to have a different quirk..
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:44 AM
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It is quite interesting to see. I could probably come up with a base maps for these mods but everyone always get different parts which make it almost pointless.

Jermaine@turboxs.com
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:53 AM
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From: SOCAL
Originally Posted by Imprezd
Amazing, NO... Disturbing yes. Even for those running on the stock ecu because i have watch the stock ecu audibly knock and keep advancing under these lean conditions.

Take a look at this map for
HKS exhaust cat back,Apexi down pipe 3",Stainless 02 racing housing and exhaust manifold,HKS super suction intake,HKS SSV blow off,HKS adjustible cam gears,HKS intake cam shaft 264,HKS exhaust cam shaft 272,Perrin fuel rail,Walbro 255 fuel pump and TURBO XS UTEC. + 680cc Inj. Injector Scaling set to 550/550
Is this on pump gas 91? or 93? Octane?

What is the dyno result on that setup on a Dynojet?

Can you post the dyno graph...

Thanks
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:58 AM
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From: Royse City, TX
Originally Posted by Imprezd
It is quite interesting to see. I could probably come up with a base maps for these mods but everyone always get different parts which make it almost pointless.

Jermaine@turboxs.com
It gets better.. as driving conditions change, that MAF anomoly changes, I found I had to retune several times as the air density changed because of how the turbulence affected the MAF readings differently.. its a HUGE PITA..
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 09:59 AM
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Have you guys observed MAF readings on cars with the stock airbox but with an upgraded intake pipe? I'm wondering if this setup will cause any lean conditions like with the entire intake. I have an HKS RS suction intake pipe and am a bit hesitant to put it on.
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 10:01 AM
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When is the UTEC gonna have the non MAF for our cars like the AEM one with the MAP conversion.

I think this should fix the fluctuating MAF readings and anomoly changes...
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 10:03 AM
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This is the same thing I experienced on my ride. I had to add a lot of fuel all the way to readline. I have Power Enterprise intake.
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by marksae
Have you guys observed MAF readings on cars with the stock airbox but with an upgraded intake pipe? I'm wondering if this setup will cause any lean conditions like with the entire intake. I have an HKS RS suction intake pipe and am a bit hesitant to put it on.

Not as severely... the stock airbox contributes alot to the stable predictable airflow into the MAF.. The biggest quirk I see with the stock airbox and aftermarket MAF pipes is the stalling since the stock airbox is a little slower to recover than the aftermarket open filters...

FWIW an aftermarket MAF pipe in general seems to lower air velocity through the MAF sensor, so generally it will lower MAF readings slightly across the board..
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ArchieBabes
When is the UTEC gonna have the non MAF for our cars like the AEM one with the MAP conversion.

I think this should fix the fluctuating MAF readings and anomoly changes...
It helps, I have an aftermarket blowthrough meter that isn't prone to disruptions in airflow and it made for a much more stable curve..

A speed density conversion isn't exactly a holy grail though.. There's several features that need to be added to the UTEC for speed density or an aftermarket blowthrough sensor to work 100% (Tip-in throttle enrichment, idle speed, idle stabilization, etc.. that should be features to adjust any type of sensor)

Also keep in mind that Speed density is an inferential calulation of airflow, and therefore isn't always consistent or correct, so you typically get some drivability quirks. It does make WOT fuel curve tuning MUCH easier though.
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ArchieBabes
Is this on pump gas 91? or 93? Octane?

What is the dyno result on that setup on a Dynojet?

Can you post the dyno graph...

Thanks
93 Octane, he made like 315 on our Dynopack with the stock cat in place.

Speed density isn't the real answer for a daily driven vehicle. While the problem won't be a simple lean condition on a base map it's be something else.

Once I tune these car they run great and they behave as normal as a Evo can behave.

Thanks,
Jermaine@turboxs.com
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Old Jan 10, 2005 | 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Not as severely... the stock airbox contributes alot to the stable predictable airflow into the MAF.. The biggest quirk I see with the stock airbox and aftermarket MAF pipes is the stalling since the stock airbox is a little slower to recover than the aftermarket open filters...

FWIW an aftermarket MAF pipe in general seems to lower air velocity through the MAF sensor, so generally it will lower MAF readings slightly across the board..
Oh okay.. I think I remember you mentioning that to me before. Which intake pipes did you see this behavior with? I would think the constant diameter intake pipes would slow the intake air velocity down a lot more compared to a tapering pipe that's shaped similar to the stock intake snorkel.

Hmmm.. since I don't have a UTEC, I'm gonna get an OBDII logger and log MAF readings before and after my intake pipe install. I just want to see if there are any alarming differences. If there is, I'll probably just put the stocker back on.
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