Is UTEC really all that limiting?
Sayajin,
I think the question you should be asking yourself is this.
Do you want to have the capability to constantly log data and make changes or are you simply looking to get something setup right the first time and not worry about and just enjoy the vehicle.
If you want to do tuning then you need to determine how much you want to spend. For a UTEC with Wideband you are looking at around $1500 for the full setup and give yourself another $1000 to cover startup tuning expensis like a dyno and some expert help. I really recommend getting some help to start with just to make sure that its safely setup and you get some good tutoring as well, providing you pick a shop that is willing to assist you.
For an AEM setup its going to run you around $3500 total. This includes the wideband, MAP sensor, and about 8 hours of tuning. Your milage may vary with that quote I am simply providing all of the data I received about 3 weeks ago from 3 different AEM shops, including Torquefreaks, which is considered the best AEM tuning shop in the world right now. All three shops did however tell me that you will be challenged with Cold start issues at some point but all of them were more then willing to assist me over the phone with any issues I had so as to not be stuck stranded.
If, however, you would rather have it setup right in teh first place, plan to buy all of the components at once (So you dont have to re-tune constantly) then I highly recommend having a Ecutek, or someother, flash done on your ECU. THe stock ECU is more powerful then anything else you can get. It can handle any size injectors you throw into it, handle MAF scaling, and many other features. You wont have launch control but you will have full control at a higher resolution for your fuel, timing, and boost. Like the AEM you can also make fueling very simple by tuning to O2 sensors for your target AFR's. SOmething the UTEC doesnt currently do. In fact, the most time consuming thing to do on the UTEC is fueling since the base ECU switches map somewhat frequently which can make idle mixtures challenging on large injectors. The AEM and a re-flash would not have these issues.
As far as answering your second question it isnt unreasonable for someone without any tuning experiance to tune there own car. I think the AEM software is a bit easier to pick up at first. You can actually download there software for free and check it out from there web site. The UTEC however takes a little while to get used too but the software tools available today are pretty good. I wrote my own software for the UTEC that works real similar to the AEM stuff giving you full 3D maps of everything and maps runs through the load cells that were hit making it much much easier to tune. The data that comes from the UTEC is very easy to manipulate so the logging features are very very nice.
I wish there were an easy answer to your question but quite frankly there isnt. Like you I have done a lot of research and have played with many different options only to be disappointed by one thing or another. The best solution imho is sticking with the stock ECU and getting a re-flash done by someone that knows what they are doing. Pick someone with a proven track record that has done at least 100 Evo's so that you know they are familiar with the vehicle. No matter what you choose you are taking a risk but at least you will be making an informed risk.
One more thing,
I was in Georgia for quite sometime and you have more whether changes to deal with then you think. With the humidity changes the DA is constantly moving around which will change your performance quite rapidly. It may not be hot to cold but there are several more factors involved then just air temp.
Good luck with your decision.
Chris
I think the question you should be asking yourself is this.
Do you want to have the capability to constantly log data and make changes or are you simply looking to get something setup right the first time and not worry about and just enjoy the vehicle.
If you want to do tuning then you need to determine how much you want to spend. For a UTEC with Wideband you are looking at around $1500 for the full setup and give yourself another $1000 to cover startup tuning expensis like a dyno and some expert help. I really recommend getting some help to start with just to make sure that its safely setup and you get some good tutoring as well, providing you pick a shop that is willing to assist you.
For an AEM setup its going to run you around $3500 total. This includes the wideband, MAP sensor, and about 8 hours of tuning. Your milage may vary with that quote I am simply providing all of the data I received about 3 weeks ago from 3 different AEM shops, including Torquefreaks, which is considered the best AEM tuning shop in the world right now. All three shops did however tell me that you will be challenged with Cold start issues at some point but all of them were more then willing to assist me over the phone with any issues I had so as to not be stuck stranded.
If, however, you would rather have it setup right in teh first place, plan to buy all of the components at once (So you dont have to re-tune constantly) then I highly recommend having a Ecutek, or someother, flash done on your ECU. THe stock ECU is more powerful then anything else you can get. It can handle any size injectors you throw into it, handle MAF scaling, and many other features. You wont have launch control but you will have full control at a higher resolution for your fuel, timing, and boost. Like the AEM you can also make fueling very simple by tuning to O2 sensors for your target AFR's. SOmething the UTEC doesnt currently do. In fact, the most time consuming thing to do on the UTEC is fueling since the base ECU switches map somewhat frequently which can make idle mixtures challenging on large injectors. The AEM and a re-flash would not have these issues.
As far as answering your second question it isnt unreasonable for someone without any tuning experiance to tune there own car. I think the AEM software is a bit easier to pick up at first. You can actually download there software for free and check it out from there web site. The UTEC however takes a little while to get used too but the software tools available today are pretty good. I wrote my own software for the UTEC that works real similar to the AEM stuff giving you full 3D maps of everything and maps runs through the load cells that were hit making it much much easier to tune. The data that comes from the UTEC is very easy to manipulate so the logging features are very very nice.
I wish there were an easy answer to your question but quite frankly there isnt. Like you I have done a lot of research and have played with many different options only to be disappointed by one thing or another. The best solution imho is sticking with the stock ECU and getting a re-flash done by someone that knows what they are doing. Pick someone with a proven track record that has done at least 100 Evo's so that you know they are familiar with the vehicle. No matter what you choose you are taking a risk but at least you will be making an informed risk.
One more thing,
I was in Georgia for quite sometime and you have more whether changes to deal with then you think. With the humidity changes the DA is constantly moving around which will change your performance quite rapidly. It may not be hot to cold but there are several more factors involved then just air temp.
Good luck with your decision.
Chris
Last edited by PDXEvo; Sep 4, 2005 at 04:57 PM.
Originally Posted by Widebandphillip
So the stock ecu can be tuned to have full idle control on straight up 280's? Full tip in accel? 2step? Anti-lag? traction control? 32x32 maps? Gas mileage? Just stop while you're ahead.
I was commenting on the AEM ems being superior to ANY piggyback setup.
But for some with Budget or tunability concerns they can go the reflash route and have a very powerful stock ecu based vehicle with great drivability.
What are you talking about and have you read any of posts carefully?
Originally Posted by PDXEvo
Sayajin,
I think the question you should be asking yourself is this.
Do you want to have the capability to constantly log data and make changes or are you simply looking to get something setup right the first time and not worry about and just enjoy the vehicle.
If you want to do tuning then you need to determine how much you want to spend. For a UTEC with Wideband you are looking at around $1500 for the full setup and give yourself another $1000 to cover startup tuning expensis like a dyno and some expert help. I really recommend getting some help to start with just to make sure that its safely setup and you get some good tutoring as well, providing you pick a shop that is willing to assist you.
For an AEM setup its going to run you around $3500 total. This includes the wideband, MAP sensor, and about 8 hours of tuning. Your milage may vary with that quote I am simply providing all of the data I received about 3 weeks ago from 3 different AEM shops, including Torquefreaks, which is considered the best AEM tuning shop in the world right now. All three shops did however tell me that you will be challenged with Cold start issues at some point but all of them were more then willing to assist me over the phone with any issues I had so as to not be stuck stranded.
If, however, you would rather have it setup right in teh first place, plan to buy all of the components at once (So you dont have to re-tune constantly) then I highly recommend having a Ecutek, or someother, flash done on your ECU. THe stock ECU is more powerful then anything else you can get. It can handle any size injectors you throw into it, handle MAF scaling, and many other features. You wont have launch control but you will have full control at a higher resolution for your fuel, timing, and boost. Like the AEM you can also make fueling very simple by tuning to O2 sensors for your target AFR's. SOmething the UTEC doesnt currently do. In fact, the most time consuming thing to do on the UTEC is fueling since the base ECU switches map somewhat frequently which can make idle mixtures challenging on large injectors. The AEM and a re-flash would not have these issues.
As far as answering your second question it isnt unreasonable for someone without any tuning experiance to tune there own car. I think the AEM software is a bit easier to pick up at first. You can actually download there software for free and check it out from there web site. The UTEC however takes a little while to get used too but the software tools available today are pretty good. I wrote my own software for the UTEC that works real similar to the AEM stuff giving you full 3D maps of everything and maps runs through the load cells that were hit making it much much easier to tune. The data that comes from the UTEC is very easy to manipulate so the logging features are very very nice.
I wish there were an easy answer to your question but quite frankly there isnt. Like you I have done a lot of research and have played with many different options only to be disappointed by one thing or another. The best solution imho is sticking with the stock ECU and getting a re-flash done by someone that knows what they are doing. Pick someone with a proven track record that has done at least 100 Evo's so that you know they are familiar with the vehicle. No matter what you choose you are taking a risk but at least you will be making an informed risk.
One more thing,
I was in Georgia for quite sometime and you have more whether changes to deal with then you think. With the humidity changes the DA is constantly moving around which will change your performance quite rapidly. It may not be hot to cold but there are several more factors involved then just air temp.
Good luck with your decision.
Chris
I think the question you should be asking yourself is this.
Do you want to have the capability to constantly log data and make changes or are you simply looking to get something setup right the first time and not worry about and just enjoy the vehicle.
If you want to do tuning then you need to determine how much you want to spend. For a UTEC with Wideband you are looking at around $1500 for the full setup and give yourself another $1000 to cover startup tuning expensis like a dyno and some expert help. I really recommend getting some help to start with just to make sure that its safely setup and you get some good tutoring as well, providing you pick a shop that is willing to assist you.
For an AEM setup its going to run you around $3500 total. This includes the wideband, MAP sensor, and about 8 hours of tuning. Your milage may vary with that quote I am simply providing all of the data I received about 3 weeks ago from 3 different AEM shops, including Torquefreaks, which is considered the best AEM tuning shop in the world right now. All three shops did however tell me that you will be challenged with Cold start issues at some point but all of them were more then willing to assist me over the phone with any issues I had so as to not be stuck stranded.
If, however, you would rather have it setup right in teh first place, plan to buy all of the components at once (So you dont have to re-tune constantly) then I highly recommend having a Ecutek, or someother, flash done on your ECU. THe stock ECU is more powerful then anything else you can get. It can handle any size injectors you throw into it, handle MAF scaling, and many other features. You wont have launch control but you will have full control at a higher resolution for your fuel, timing, and boost. Like the AEM you can also make fueling very simple by tuning to O2 sensors for your target AFR's. SOmething the UTEC doesnt currently do. In fact, the most time consuming thing to do on the UTEC is fueling since the base ECU switches map somewhat frequently which can make idle mixtures challenging on large injectors. The AEM and a re-flash would not have these issues.
As far as answering your second question it isnt unreasonable for someone without any tuning experiance to tune there own car. I think the AEM software is a bit easier to pick up at first. You can actually download there software for free and check it out from there web site. The UTEC however takes a little while to get used too but the software tools available today are pretty good. I wrote my own software for the UTEC that works real similar to the AEM stuff giving you full 3D maps of everything and maps runs through the load cells that were hit making it much much easier to tune. The data that comes from the UTEC is very easy to manipulate so the logging features are very very nice.
I wish there were an easy answer to your question but quite frankly there isnt. Like you I have done a lot of research and have played with many different options only to be disappointed by one thing or another. The best solution imho is sticking with the stock ECU and getting a re-flash done by someone that knows what they are doing. Pick someone with a proven track record that has done at least 100 Evo's so that you know they are familiar with the vehicle. No matter what you choose you are taking a risk but at least you will be making an informed risk.
One more thing,
I was in Georgia for quite sometime and you have more whether changes to deal with then you think. With the humidity changes the DA is constantly moving around which will change your performance quite rapidly. It may not be hot to cold but there are several more factors involved then just air temp.
Good luck with your decision.
Chris
Except for the fact that if someone is charging and getting $3500 for the AEM Ems tuned with MAF delete, then I need to shut my doors and work for them...
Well, the biggest issue with the UTEC is having to work around the MAF, however your really not "Scaling" the injectors per-se.. It just seems that way because of how the software is set up. You are actually directly controlling the injectors in open loop maps, and scaling the MAF signals for larger injectors in closed loop (idle and part throttle)
I agree with the comments about difficulty with getting good idle with cams and big injectors, however I've always had ways of working around that so it has never been a problem for me. Plus I'm familiar enough with the ECU and UTEC that I can get a good quality and drivable part throttle performance that I see no need to use a full standalone.
I would like to see features such as AFR Target on the UTEC, that would actually make tuning for varying conditions alot easier (and would change the nature of how the UTEC works)
To say that the UTEC cripples the ECU is actually a completely false statement, when the UTEC switches from closed loop, to open loop fueling, it actually runs almost entirely as a standalone.
If the AEM EMS was OBD-II compliant, I would probably be running it..
The original topic is whether the UTEC can support a big turbo car producing 500-600hp, and its definitely capable of doing it. Only you do need to address the MAF and Idle issues, which can be done with additional hardware until the UTEC itself is capable of it.
To say that you will not make the same power with a properly tuned UTEC, or a properly tuned EMS, or even Reflash, well that is utterly ignorant and false.. The truth is that if you know your tools, you can produce the results if the hardware were on equal footing. The only real advantage you have with speed density is that the MAF isn't in the picture.. If you remove the stock MAF from any of the other solutions, you will be able to get a consistent tune and make similar power.
Now with that said, all of this is pretty pointless. Each type of engine management serves specific purposes and each has its advantages and disadvantages.. But to say any one can do better if put on equal ground is just not entirely accurate.
I agree with the comments about difficulty with getting good idle with cams and big injectors, however I've always had ways of working around that so it has never been a problem for me. Plus I'm familiar enough with the ECU and UTEC that I can get a good quality and drivable part throttle performance that I see no need to use a full standalone.
I would like to see features such as AFR Target on the UTEC, that would actually make tuning for varying conditions alot easier (and would change the nature of how the UTEC works)
To say that the UTEC cripples the ECU is actually a completely false statement, when the UTEC switches from closed loop, to open loop fueling, it actually runs almost entirely as a standalone.
If the AEM EMS was OBD-II compliant, I would probably be running it..
The original topic is whether the UTEC can support a big turbo car producing 500-600hp, and its definitely capable of doing it. Only you do need to address the MAF and Idle issues, which can be done with additional hardware until the UTEC itself is capable of it.
To say that you will not make the same power with a properly tuned UTEC, or a properly tuned EMS, or even Reflash, well that is utterly ignorant and false.. The truth is that if you know your tools, you can produce the results if the hardware were on equal footing. The only real advantage you have with speed density is that the MAF isn't in the picture.. If you remove the stock MAF from any of the other solutions, you will be able to get a consistent tune and make similar power.
Now with that said, all of this is pretty pointless. Each type of engine management serves specific purposes and each has its advantages and disadvantages.. But to say any one can do better if put on equal ground is just not entirely accurate.
Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
Really,
Do you know how much we charge for a standalone to be tuned?
Or are you basing this on your own commitment at the Vishnu shop?
I also think you have the laziness part mixed up. That is why Piggybacks were invented.
Instead of someone doing things right the first time they rely on deceptive tuning practices for an end result rather than a complete package.
Maybe some "tuners" have given you a bad taste in your mouth.
Don't make the mistake to classify all those people in the same catigory.
"Some" shops have a way of making "self proclaimed" tuner specific companys eat their words
Do you know how much we charge for a standalone to be tuned?
Or are you basing this on your own commitment at the Vishnu shop?
I also think you have the laziness part mixed up. That is why Piggybacks were invented.
Instead of someone doing things right the first time they rely on deceptive tuning practices for an end result rather than a complete package.
Maybe some "tuners" have given you a bad taste in your mouth.
Don't make the mistake to classify all those people in the same catigory.
"Some" shops have a way of making "self proclaimed" tuner specific companys eat their words
and a laugh 
. FYI I dont work at Vishnu at this time my title hasnt been changed yet.
[QUOTE=MalibuJack]Well, the biggest issue with the UTEC is having to work around the MAF, however your really not "Scaling" the injectors per-se.. It just seems that way because of how the software is set up. You are actually directly controlling the injectors in open loop maps, and scaling the MAF signals for larger injectors in closed loop (idle and part throttle)
I agree with the comments about difficulty with getting good idle with cams and big injectors, however I've always had ways of working around that so it has never been a problem for me. Plus I'm familiar enough with the ECU and UTEC that I can get a good quality and drivable part throttle performance that I see no need to use a full standalone.
I would like to see features such as AFR Target on the UTEC, that would actually make tuning for varying conditions alot easier (and would change the nature of how the UTEC works)
To say that the UTEC cripples the ECU is actually a completely false statement, when the UTEC switches from closed loop, to open loop fueling, it actually runs almost entirely as a standalone.
If the AEM EMS was OBD-II compliant, I would probably be running it..
The original topic is whether the UTEC can support a big turbo car producing 500-600hp, and its definitely capable of doing it. Only you do need to address the MAF and Idle issues, which can be done with additional hardware until the UTEC itself is capable of it.
To say that you will not make the same power with a properly tuned UTEC, or a properly tuned EMS, or even Reflash, well that is utterly ignorant and false.. The truth is that if you know your tools, you can produce the results if the hardware were on equal footing. The only real advantage you have with speed density is that the MAF isn't in the picture.. If you remove the stock MAF from any of the other solutions, you will be able to get a consistent tune and make similar power.
Now with that said, all of this is pretty pointless. Each type of engine management serves specific purposes and each has its advantages and disadvantages.. But to say any one can do better if put on equal ground is just not entirely accurate.[/QUOTE]
Good post Malibu. -- what how can pocketing $800 bucks a disadvantage??
I agree with the comments about difficulty with getting good idle with cams and big injectors, however I've always had ways of working around that so it has never been a problem for me. Plus I'm familiar enough with the ECU and UTEC that I can get a good quality and drivable part throttle performance that I see no need to use a full standalone.
I would like to see features such as AFR Target on the UTEC, that would actually make tuning for varying conditions alot easier (and would change the nature of how the UTEC works)
To say that the UTEC cripples the ECU is actually a completely false statement, when the UTEC switches from closed loop, to open loop fueling, it actually runs almost entirely as a standalone.
If the AEM EMS was OBD-II compliant, I would probably be running it..
The original topic is whether the UTEC can support a big turbo car producing 500-600hp, and its definitely capable of doing it. Only you do need to address the MAF and Idle issues, which can be done with additional hardware until the UTEC itself is capable of it.
To say that you will not make the same power with a properly tuned UTEC, or a properly tuned EMS, or even Reflash, well that is utterly ignorant and false.. The truth is that if you know your tools, you can produce the results if the hardware were on equal footing. The only real advantage you have with speed density is that the MAF isn't in the picture.. If you remove the stock MAF from any of the other solutions, you will be able to get a consistent tune and make similar power.
Now with that said, all of this is pretty pointless. Each type of engine management serves specific purposes and each has its advantages and disadvantages.. But to say any one can do better if put on equal ground is just not entirely accurate.[/QUOTE]
Good post Malibu. -- what how can pocketing $800 bucks a disadvantage??
Originally Posted by Precision Dyno
This is actually a very good post.
Except for the fact that if someone is charging and getting $3500 for the AEM Ems tuned with MAF delete, then I need to shut my doors and work for them...
Except for the fact that if someone is charging and getting $3500 for the AEM Ems tuned with MAF delete, then I need to shut my doors and work for them...
Labor
Price
Installation of AIT, 3.5 MAP, GM boost solenoid , AEM wideband (bung already installed)
525.00
AEM EMS Tuning - includes drivablity, power , pump and race gas (based on 6 hours of tuning and subject to change)
900.00
Total Labor
1,425.00
Ground
HPF EMS EVO VIII AEM DIS
Lancer, HorsepowerFreaks, Engine Management Stand Alone EMS Complete Lancer EVO VIII Package (03) w/AEM Wideband w/gauge display
1
2,099.55
2,099.55
Total Products
2,099.55
Shipping
21.52
Hazmat - Shop Supplies
78.00
Total
3,624.07
JIC someone thinks I am making this up I am more then happy to forward you the quotes.
Originally Posted by David@Vishnu
Well you feel the way you do and Im glad you can tune a car to OEM adaptability and flexability for less than $500 Ill make a recommendation of it. And Im sorry your chapped about the inevitability of Mr. Ivey accepting your challenge. Dont worry Ill post it up so we can have a and a laugh . FYI I dont work at Vishnu at this time my title hasnt been changed yet.
and a laugh . FYI I dont work at Vishnu at this time my title hasnt been changed yet.How is it you feel that you can interject yourself in **** that doesn't concern you?
What does Shawn Ivey have to do with this discussion?
"chapped" at what?
And What challenge would that be?
I think you need to stop starting **** and talking ****.
Have a
to that. Make a truely informative post with facts.
I made a comment earlier that asked to have a "real" discussion about the capabilites of these piggybacks over an AEM ems. That is all. Can you handle that??
Try to stick on topic.
Otherwise keep your head in the sand.
Originally Posted by PDXEvo
Read it and weep.
Labor
Price
Installation of AIT, 3.5 MAP, GM boost solenoid , AEM wideband (bung already installed)
525.00
AEM EMS Tuning - includes drivablity, power , pump and race gas (based on 6 hours of tuning and subject to change)
900.00
Total Labor
1,425.00
Ground
HPF EMS EVO VIII AEM DIS
Lancer, HorsepowerFreaks, Engine Management Stand Alone EMS Complete Lancer EVO VIII Package (03) w/AEM Wideband w/gauge display
1
2,099.55
2,099.55
Total Products
2,099.55
Shipping
21.52
Hazmat - Shop Supplies
78.00
Total
3,624.07
JIC someone thinks I am making this up I am more then happy to forward you the quotes.
Labor
Price
Installation of AIT, 3.5 MAP, GM boost solenoid , AEM wideband (bung already installed)
525.00
AEM EMS Tuning - includes drivablity, power , pump and race gas (based on 6 hours of tuning and subject to change)
900.00
Total Labor
1,425.00
Ground
HPF EMS EVO VIII AEM DIS
Lancer, HorsepowerFreaks, Engine Management Stand Alone EMS Complete Lancer EVO VIII Package (03) w/AEM Wideband w/gauge display
1
2,099.55
2,099.55
Total Products
2,099.55
Shipping
21.52
Hazmat - Shop Supplies
78.00
Total
3,624.07
JIC someone thinks I am making this up I am more then happy to forward you the quotes.
Wow.. I would never subject you guys to those prices to tune an EMS, or any type of EM for that matter. Dyno time can get expensive though..
I've always felt that the tune is in the tuner.. A good tuner can make power with anything he's given to work with. Everyone has their preferences so its pointless to argue "Religion" I can only express my opinions. But if it works, then use what works for you.
I love the control a full standalone and if I didnt have to deal with legalities of getting the car inspected. I'm confident my car would pass a sniffer test, but our state requires OBD-II For some thats an advantage since no CEL light means you pass...
I always found the UTEC to be the best compromise for that reason. And its certainly capable of being tuned to produce the same power as any other EM.
I've always felt that the tune is in the tuner.. A good tuner can make power with anything he's given to work with. Everyone has their preferences so its pointless to argue "Religion" I can only express my opinions. But if it works, then use what works for you.
I love the control a full standalone and if I didnt have to deal with legalities of getting the car inspected. I'm confident my car would pass a sniffer test, but our state requires OBD-II For some thats an advantage since no CEL light means you pass...
I always found the UTEC to be the best compromise for that reason. And its certainly capable of being tuned to produce the same power as any other EM.
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
From: Idaho Falls
I'm a new evo owner and I bought a modded Evo 8 showcar and this is one of the more informative threads I've read when it comes to tuning. I have the same question that Sayajin posted. Based on this thread it seems that for a rookie like me, going with a flash would be best. Thanks for the discussion, this thread ought to be sticked.
Ty
Ty
I agree that many people really should consider the Reflash, as said in previous posts, they all have specific advantages that some are willing to accept the compromises that come with them also. For me the UTEC offered the most advantages with the fewest compromises for what I needed, simply because I do frequently change components and make adjustments and need a decent level of flexibility.
I personally would not reflash my car, however if you have a good tuner, and a pretty static configuration, the Reflash makes the most sense, and results in the fewest compromises but offers very little if any end-user adjustability (At this time, there will be ECU Reflash products in the future that will allow user tuning some elements)
I personally would not reflash my car, however if you have a good tuner, and a pretty static configuration, the Reflash makes the most sense, and results in the fewest compromises but offers very little if any end-user adjustability (At this time, there will be ECU Reflash products in the future that will allow user tuning some elements)
