Wow this has been an interesting read (I guess I need to get online a little more!)

I was piloting the Evo IX for the baselines, it hit 1.5bar tapering to 1.4 and felt a little unhappy in the midrange, to be honest any number of things could be attributed to this after all anything could have happened between the time it was tuned and time it was dyno'd. If I was a gambling man smart money would be on a crappier than usual tank of 91 ****.

I have to confess to not understanding the reasoning between the posted comparison other than both cars were dyno'd on the sameday although that being said should we have posted the 2 STI's and 1 Viper as well??

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Mike

 

Please do, just curious to see what they look like

 

no offense, but why would you even want a linear power curve or one that looked n/a... especially when the peak numbers are in the 260 range. that justs means you have less average hp in the entire powerband than a car that would make 260 tq at 3.5k and 260 hp at 6.5k.

that's seriously nothing to brag about unless you really are naturally aspirated.

And i really don't think this is a useless comparison at all. it just goes to show how much higher some of the other dynos on this forum read.

In my opinion, tuning isnt all just about making hp, a large part of it is knowing when to stop.

I think it is doing our local community a huge favor in terms of risk by not trying to chase those numbers we see online.

This thread just solidifies what tuners who use this dyno already know. It reads low.

Plus with all the hype surrounding 9's, its good to know that with basic modifications our older 8's aren't necessarily lame ducks.

Also, while those ix dyno sheets you posted at Buschurs are a lot nicer, and come from a dyno that's not inflated, you guys get that wonderful 93 octane.

Out here we got 91. While I've never used 93 octane, I imagine that those 2 points make all the difference in the world as I could never even want to imagine how my car would run on 89 fuel.

91 octane + GS dyno = shiety internet bragging rights

It just goes to show you tuners out here have it hard.

 

amen.

 

You see that's the problem, and that is where I have to agree with AL. I mean the numbers that were posted for the IX on that dyno are not a good representation of what so many other IXs have been making. To just right it off as being normal is wrong in my opinion and I believe something went wrong. I mean now you have all these people saying, see the IXs really aren't that strong compared to the VIIIs, when so many other tuners have been showing drastically different numbers then what was shown at Gruppe S.

I mean my biggest complaint is that it seemed like Gruppe S was clearily stating their opinion that the numbers shown by other IXs at other shops are fabricated or exaggerated going off of one DYNO. I can understand AL's disapproval, because to him, and he has done so many EVOs and this particular one felt really good to him, and to see the numbers posted being way off to what he was expecting, I can understand his reasoning for questioning what went wrong. Say for instance Gruppe S tuned an EVO VIII and it made really good power, and all of sudden the owner of the car takes it to Vishnu to get dynoed and it puts down 245whp and 230wtq with TBE with cat delete, MBC, Cams, Intake, Custom Flash, and 100oct gas, wouldn't people question the numbers and wonder what went wrong? Why because so many other VIIIs with the same combination of mods have made much more power. I do not believe anybody would simply write it off as being normal. So why is it different for this IX.

I mean it would have made much more sense to me, if Gruppe S had stated they spent hours dyno tunning this IX and these were the best numbers they could, but this is not what happend. They simply strapped the car on the dyno and these are the numbers they got, that's fine and dandy, but a lot of stuff could have happend from the day of the tune to the day of the dyno and to simply mark these numbers off as being normal is just wrong in my opinion. I don't care if the IX is still making more power than what most VIIIs do, the numbers are low, the numbers are not an accurate representation of the power it should be making.

 

Vishnu also uses 91oct gas and doesn't Mynes in Arizona use 91oct too? They just dynoed a IX at-



Mods-
JIC Catback
Perrin Downpipe and Catdelete pipe
Dyno tune
Restrictor pill in boost line removed.

 

I appreciate that you have resonated with why I am feeling frustrated by these dyno numbers

My thoughts for the very weak showing are

1 - Low boost - the customers gauge may have been off and I use a seperate MAP sesnor to measure the boost. The Mustang dyno being used by GS should have the MAP sesnor attachment as it is critical - especially when comparing dyno sheets. The shape of the dyno sheet in the TQ curve shows me the boost was set too low. If the boost was allowed to rise to a fully bootsed condition it would have taken another 200 - 300 rpms as in any other IX car as shown in the above dyno sheets and the shape of the curve would have had a more gradual and slooping shape as it reached a stable boost level at peak TQ.

2 - Bad tank of gas in combinaion with low boost. The way i set up street cars on the IX if there is any appreciable knock activity going on the car will revert to a much less agressive ignition timing map and thus avoid the knock - this would take away at least 10 - 15 whp. Still not enough to explain the result here.

3 - Poor coolant temp. Iith the IX there are 3 seperate independant operating maps for boost and timing. One of the criteria for selecting the operating map is coolant temprature.

It is inperavtive when dynoing a car that the coolant temps be at a normal operating condition - 180 degrees

I have seen situations where many dyno operators who do not fully appreciate the complexity of the modern automotive ecu will strap a car on the dyno for three quick power pulls not realizing that the car must be brough up to normal road operating temrature by being driven on the dyno before the first pull.

A cooling down period must be given after each run to allow the coolant temps to reach a stable level

With the limited air flow of most dyno fans it is very easy to over heat the coolant when doing dyno pulls.

With an IX it only will run the ideal ignition timing when the car is at normal operating temprature.

I really am interested to hear back from my customer about the boost gauge he is using and see what kind of efforts were made at the dyno to adjust the boost level for the dyno load and make sure the car was at normal operating condition.

People must realize that a dyno is simply a TOOL like any other diangostic device. It must be used properly in order to most accurately replicate real world operating conditions. If care is not taken to make basic efforts to dulpicate the conditions on the road the results achived are totally useless.

For those who may be interested - here is a very detailed dicussion from a very excelent tuner about the difficulties of replicating the real world conditions on the dyno.

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9

 

The car was warmed up on the dyno and not simply strapped and ran, as far as boost I was watching the stock boost gauge while running the car and as stated previously it showed 1.5 bar peak falling back to 1.4 bar.

Like I stated previously I am not really sure why this comparison was posted but in the interest in clearing a few things up I will call the customer on Monday and see if he wants another dyno baseline on the house and attach the pressure transducer for a boost log as well as data log the ECU and timing for everyone if that helps.

Mike

 

Sheding some additional light on this interesting dyno comparsion

I just spoke with the customer who uses this evo sparingly as a 2nd or 3rd car

It was still on the same tank of gas as when I tuned it when it hit the dyno - so gas is not a factor

He is using the FACTORY pos tiny boost gauge which IMHO is almost totally useless and inaccurate

he has ordered a DEFI mechanical boost gauge which is also know to read consistantly high

I am going to locate a reference gauge which is known to read a accurate boost level and send it to the customer to use as a reference when the car goes on the dyno

My suggestions will be to re-dyno the car with 20.5 psi peak boost tapering to 19 at red line and with a starting coolant temprature of 173 - 178 degrees at the begining of the dyno pull as measured with a OBDII scan tool

With these controls - I am 99.9999% confident that this IX will generate a dyno sheet which looks just like the dyno sheet of the other IX's I tuned which I posted above

 

Alright I have lost all interest in this babbling. Hell, if my car was always driven in this perfect little temp controlled bubble at the open track all this babbling would be great, but it isn't. The outside world creates uncontrollable factors.

Al, you're a whiney lil' bear. That's all I have to say. Jayzus.

 

i think you are missing the point 100% - I would suggest you read the comments by Mr. dinan I posted above so you can see the hurdels a professional dyno operator faces in replication of real world conditions in the dyno room

There is no accident that the ferrari F1 team conducts its dyno sessions inside a wind tunnel

In any event - I really dont care what you think. I am explaining the situation on proper dyno proceedure not for your benefit but for the benefit of people who may be reading this post and wondering what these numbers may mean.

I think a lot of the members here take a dyno number with too much reverence. The dyno was designed primarily as a tuning and diagnostic tool and its most useful function is to use to see how tuning adjustments effect the power on a given car to maximize the power. I have seen examples where cars are tuned on a dyno and the tune is totally off when it reaches the street - which is why it is important to follow a uniform testing procedure when testing on a dyno.

Apparently when a guru like Mr. Dinan is writing a techical article of such legnth on the same subject it has some relivance to other people as well.

 

 

I just wanted to make sure that is quoted Mr. Poo Bear.

And why are you linking to a dyno article and babbling about proper dyno setup when you did a street tune on this car?

 

I guess if you are asking a question like that you just don't get it at all.

 

I guess not.

Merry Christmas Al.