I'm not understanding this. Is there a different MAS that is a direct upgrade (501,609), or are these to support cams or porting? Or are they upgrades with bigger injectors and pumps. Sorry if these seem like dumb questions, but I am wondering if these will help me with a noticable improvement. Now I have intake, header, exhaust, test pipe. I've just always went by let it breeth (cam, port, header, TB, intake, exhaust), more displacement, and forced induction with more fuel to get more power.

 

i think this is generally a good upgrade. if you go to a larger bore tb or a cam, then you obviously want a larger MAS to compliment it. i even believe the stock MAS is a pretty big restriction. bahamut posted a thread on pics on the difference between the 501 and 605. they're interchangable but need a fuel controller and recommended either a fuel pump or fpr. the 609 requires soldering on a new harness and IMO requires injector upgradeshttps://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...&pagenumber=31 and a general picture of the 609. http://www.roadraceengineering.com/e...adjustment.htm this is a mod for easier breathing. i even read somewhere that "it's a poor man's larger tb," or something like that...

 

current setup

LO---
+19 across the board

HI---
1k -7
2k -6
2.5k -3
3k -2
3.5k -1
4k +3
4.5k +8
5k +11

these are a bit tentative as i've been trying a few different intake setups relative to the distance between the tb and MAS. this is with a shorty setup with 2.75" piping at about 7 inches(from tb to edge of MAS). 1k and 2k at HI should actually be lowered a bit as they hit .94-.97v then they level off at .90-.92v afterwards. i should also trade in 3.5k for another tuning spot at 6k as it does lean out a bit after 5k at wot. +19 is still good enough to get me 32 mpg so it shouldn't be too bad until i save up for a pocket logger or something to monitor STFT.

i'm thinking that the only difference between the 605 and 501 is just the restrictor plate. the part number under the MAS is the same on both. >PBT-G30< everything else seems to look the same. the only minor seemingly meaningless difference is that the 501 MAS adjustment screw comes out more when backed out until flush in the inside. so then i'm thinking a hacked 605 would be the same as a hacked 501 if the fabricated restrictor plate is the same. a 605 with no restrictor plate will not idle with fpr and fuel pump. maybe with larger injectors? i'm still trying to figure out why you could get a mirage with a 60mm tb and 609 to idle with 210cc injectors. i think imma go and try the 605 with no restrictor plate again when it gets warmer and drier out. I don't think i've tried it with both the FP and FPR. so far, 2.75"x2.75" restrictor is as far as it will go.

 

http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/f...ectorguide.htm

As expected, Impor Tuner has gotten their info wrong. A fellow mirager found the above link about injectors.

Look at the last gen Rx-7 for a G94 TC app. As for fitment issues, I have talked to a DSM'er who has looked and touched Rx-7 injectors. They will fit, but you need longer injector bolts, injector clips, and most importantly new o-rings. (hopefully, I have remembered correctly . . . we did a lot of tech talk today).

For NA (my assumption), there is a rumor that "we" can use the 97-98 H22 injectors from a prelude. "We" CANNOT CONFIRM this yet. 280cc will be a great upgrade for the NA crowd, especially lancers and the 3g eclipse RS/GS (too big for a G93 to run NA). I'm sure there are more lancer guys who can talk to any H&A guys better than us, miragers.



fkrzo,
We're trying to do this R&D (unconvential thinking) as a way to find cost effective mods that garners bigger power with tuning. W/o tuning, it's a waste of effort just to get a CEL.

Just look at my mods, I didn't really do much, and I was still using stock 1.5 inch exhaust and auto tranny. Tuning was my key to sucess. How many people like to tune? Just ask HK and rhyzin . . . takes a lot of hard work, headache, and swallowing your pride a bit when it's a bit off than expected. Then again, I loves challenges to a certain extent.

You don't really need a bigger TB or cam to run a bigger MAF (not applying the 2g GSX MAF yet). If you have all the bolt-on possible, this is the next logical step. The 501 MAF cost about 40 bucks w/ tax at the salvage yard about 1.5 yrs ago in TB, FL. They came from 3g eclipses and past galants.

Look at the 1g DSM guys running 2g MAF. They get bigger power gains w/ tuning. The same w/ the SR20 guys using 300ZXT MAF or 03 Cobra Hotwire conversion kit.

Lancer and mirage guys should look at those who had done so long ago. "We" just have to follow their step and mod it accordingly to us.

 

rhyzin,

I didn't expect your LO setting to be that high trying to figure out why). On your HI, I kinda expected it. Mitsu tends to run rich at WOT before hitting the sweet spot in the powerband, adding a bit more fuel.

Interesting point on the restrictor plate and adj-ment screw. Unfortunately, I can't double check it, because I have sold my 501 after the wreck to a guy in PR w/ cam work (RPW). He used it briefly w/o AFC, and he was getting uncontrollable power in the lower gears (manual - pulls the car too much, just like I had when I first tried it w/o AFC . . . basically, power surges).


"i'm still trying to figure out why you could get a mirage with a 60mm tb and 609 to idle with 210cc injectors."

There were two other DSM'ers who helped along this project, a mechanic and a casual owner of two 2g DSMs. Both used their experience to mess with the ISC and TPS. They did something (didn't really ask. I just told them to close up the TB butterfly a bit more), and I had to adjust fuel trim.

Last week, I helped this mirager moving to a new apartment. Since the car has some time to adjust itself, it has given signs that it's running rich at idle (fuel droplets leaving the exhaust).

When I have the time, I'll adjust again. I'll get a pic on the TPS and ISC and AFC trim level.


Strange you have mention a pocketlogger. I have talked to a DSM'er who (told me about the Rx-7 injectors) has a friend that used a pocketlogger OBD 2 on a previous gen altima, some honda product (can't recall), celica GTS, and a 2g DSM . . . All of them work. Of course, some cars don't have a knock sensor.

This means a pocketlogger OBD 2 can be applied to all OBD2 cars, and a lancer can read their knock count. The same friend has some connection on a pocketlogger, and I'll try to convince that mirager to get one. It's a hell a lot easier tuning w/ a pocketlogger than trying to read instant #'s off the AFC (greater human error).

 

at 6k as it does lean out a bit after 5k at wot. +19 is still good enough to get me 32 mpg
==========================

There is a good possiblity that the ECU has never seen karman reading that high and fast on the 605 . . . it's usually normal for the 501.

So far, I cannot duplicate your results on a lancer yet. No local lancer tryouts. You don't have a CEL, right. Hope so.



Another concern . . . needs some addressing.
I cannot discount the wisdom of RRE and crew about their R&D that the AFC doesn't work on a lancer. Something is lousing up the adjustment to fool the ecu.

1) I Definately believe you, rhyzin, as a tuner (not doubting your observation and skills) and your R&D work.

2) The difference between Fed spec and Cali spec can be small in some ways but big in performance. How are you having great sucess tuning as to the whole platoon of lancer guys w/ AFC failing?

3) Amongst the mirage camp, no cali spec guys run an AFC. They just do the basic intall of exhaust and intake and call it a day. Mirage with cali spec piping . . . yes, on the AFC to a 1.5L, principles are different a bit.

4) "We" need to find a common dominator that is limiting others but not you.

 

what Boe had said (he's close to RRM) was that the ecu only sees negative correction from the afc and not positive. how i look at an afc is that it either prolongs or shortens injector duty cycle. if an afc on a stock fuel system can't add correction, then i believe there is a stock maximum range idc at certain rpm that doesn't seem to be adjustable.

so with my fuel mods, i can correct positive or negative since i'm still within range of a complying idc. the trend with the gsx fuel pump is that it gives out a lot of gas at WOT and less gas(but if i remember correctly still more than stock) at closed loop. i'm sure you experienced something like that too bahamut. so that would mean i would run pig rich at the stock idc giving me some room to tune down with the afc.

turning up the fpr from the stock 38 psi to 44psi also gives me a bit more room to play with. at 38 psi, the 240cc injectors are like they're running 223cc while i'm running the standard 240cc because of the 44psi at the rail. if i remember right, you bumped up to 240cc injectors from 210's.

so far this is the only thing i can think of. the corrections are not governed by the MAS numbers but by idc. any other ideas?

oh yeah, no CEL.

 

another thought came to mind. the claim is that the ecu doesn't see positive correction from the safc. but what if we weren't fooling the safc and the MAS was really seeing those numbers? that would be the case in a turbo, right? so looking at turbo kits, what seems to be similar to my setup are fuel upgrades. injectors, boost sensitive fpr and a new fuel pump. also, there aren't any safc or little black boxes or any kind of ecu tweaking needed in these kits. using the stock 605, there is no way that it's not seeing a larger air mass coming in (i'll ask in the turbo lancer forums to make sure). therefore, it's not really the numbers from the MAS that controls the effectiveness of a SAFC. so far, i still think idc determines it.

 

Sweet Christ...baha and rhyzin, you both never cease to amaze with your sheer dedication to CSM power. I'm gonna have to read the thread when I'm not doing my macroecon and bus. law homework but the parts I have read are chock full of yummy info.

 

lol

sent a pm to Rob at RRM in hopes of clarifying his claim. if he doesn't send me back a reply, i'll end up seeing him soon in a socal meet in the following months. don't want to be bothering him too much while he could be making us more goodies.

 

okay, talked to vince(thanks vince), a turbo guy, and he says the nonintercooled kit runs the stock injectors. good reason why idle is maintained without ecu adjustments. vortech fmu comes with the rrm turbo kit so that solves adding fuel during boost mechanically instead of electronically. and then there's the walbro to keep fuel pressure at the rail under boost, which some of us feel the stock pump isn't up to the task. if fuel isn't regulated by idc, then i should be going in the right direction, but the wrong conclusion.

but now if an fmu is used to raise pressure at the rail under boost with the stock injectors, that is a **** load of pressure needed to run the injectors high enough to support 180+ whp. kinda scary, but haven't heard anything about the fuel system exploding or injectors sticking. but i think i have heard fuel lines from the fmu popping off. imma have to go check that. it's interesting because those stock injectors should be seeing way past their limit IMO. BTW, anyone got good info on injectors? i really wanna know what determines their mechanical limits in both pressure at the rail and idc. looked into a few of my auto books from skool, but nothing specific since its just basics so far.

 

called road race today. couldn't talk to rob cuz he was on the other line. instead, the guy who answered started talking and didn't tell me anything i didn't already know and didn't know much beyond that. oh well. i guess i'll try again some other time.

 

Yes, the GSX FP gives a better flowrate overall than the stock FP by a long shot.

Then, the variables that most people are messing up on the AFC are w/o upgrading the FP and FPR. We need to get some sort of stat count of people having any AFC device with or w/o the latter upgrade. This should give us a better window/image what is confounding us.

As for the TC, I do believe the turbo forces the ecu to consume more air, but there is a point where the 605 can't suck anymore out from its factory perimeter (ie counting air). Normally, injectors can't go beyond 80% duty cycle, but RC Engineering (if requested) can make an injector going 90% duty cycle.

Running TC w/ stock injectors . . . wow, mathwise, 240cc can take HP at max around 180 HP. Any more, the injectors will fail.

 

tuned the car via pocketlogger yesterday and found some interesting things about my settings. i found i was on the edge of getting a cel. long term fuel trim was at +10.9% (lean). since the safc settings were high already, i bumped fuel pressure up to 44psi and retuned.

LO settings - - - - -
+32% -> +29 decling throughout rpm range

HI settings - - - - -
1k -21%
2k -20%
3k -18%
4k -7%
4.5k +3%
5k +8%
5.5k +8%
6k +10%

WOT AF ratio .90-.92v throughout verified by datalog
LTFT +0.8%

damn, i love this scantool. car is tuned nicely and am gonna go out and try and use this dyno function in the software. did a few runs before and got around 133-140hp on 3 good runs out of maybe 7. runs were done in 3rd cuz there's no roads around here long enough to do runs in 4th nor would it be safe.

 

rhyzin if I were to use the AFC how would I tune it with my turbo setup? I wanted to get it a while back but was told it didn't work but what you are saying makes sense. So I would just need to get an aftermarket FPR right? But I have no idea how to tune that crap I can just take it to a Dyno shop right and have them tune my afc and fpr? If the AFC does work sorry I doubted u guys!!

later,
ray.