I have renewed talks w/ rhyzin for a few days now. I'm trying to bounce some R&D how mirages and lancers are varying their AFC values.

For the last two weekends ago, I have helped a DSM mechanic to break apart a G93 engine and tranny, rebuilt it, and put it together within 2.5 days, which included tolerance checks to factory spec. Yes, we also lost approx 6-8 hrs, hunting and pecking for tools and parts.

EDIT: Since using the 99 cyl head, the 97 lost its adjustable lifter in favor for the modern hydraulic lifters.

EDIT: As for the G93 intake mani, 60mm is the absolute max to bore out. Any more, you'll start hitting the structural intergity of the intake mani.

 

Here are some pics. The original motor suffered rod bearing problems (#2 and 3) due to the lack of oil and a damaged oil pain.

The engine has Wiseco pistons, pauter conrods, RPW PnP that was originally for a Quad TB, RPW upgraded valve springs, bored block by .5mm and balanced crankshaft by another local DSM mechanic/machinist, Lancer INJEN CAI, 609 MAF from a 2g GSX, 60mm TB and 1g DSM elbow (can't remember the sensors like ISC and TPS), port matched the intake mani (rough DIY) using a 60mm TB gasket and black marker, and finally AFC.

 

The 1g GSX TB and elbow. Unfortunately, the INJEN CAI (just using the piping a bit) didn't angle the big 2g MAF right and pushed it too far forward. We had to jerry rig a Home Depot special.

We tightened screw for the butterfly to its max, messed a bit on the TPS (another casual DSM'er was helping us), and checked for leaks. After finding out the 2nd MAF was bad, the DSM mechanic scavanged off his spare (don't need it since he's using VPC). The 3rd MAF works like a charm at idle from 710 - 920 rpm.

 

All G93 from the 4g mirage to 97 can use the 609 MAF (2g DSM and 3KGT VR4) w/o splicing into the plug harness like the SR20 guys using 300ZXT or Cobra's Hotwire MAF.

All +98 - 02 G93 and Lancer 4g94 can use the 501 MAF w/o splicing into the plug harness. They have smaller pin plug than the previous model with wider pin plug.

As for splicing, despite different colors, they are EXACTLY the same. The graft will work, just need DSM pin plug to graft in lieu of the smaller pin plug.

How do I know? The 97 owner at the time didn't have the funds to replace his original MAF that was DOA from age. He had to downgrade using the smaller pin plug and 605 MAF in order to run the car for work. Then, during the rebuild, we grafted back the DSM plug. Presto, it works!

 

Just polished the engine plaque for major bling factor!


Also, you need a 4 inch connector to attach the intake piping to the oval shaped 609 MAF.


During the break-in period, the AFC value so far w/ stock 210cc injectors.

idle: +24% (O2 reading cycles up to .86x max)
2K: +26% (O2 reading cycles at max from .89x to .91x) EDIT
3K: +28% (same as above).

In the future, we're going to source some Rx-7's injectors since they are high imp.

 

rhyzin
Thanks for the input on your side of the equation. At least, it gives some some foundation work on my theory. I just need to refine it a bit.

So far basing on the O2 reading, the 210cc injectors can't cycle effectively to the 609 MAF that was originally taylored for 360 or 390 to 450 cc in a 3kGT VR4 or 2g DSM.


HK,
Just passing the info to you. Your system completely by-passes this. You're in rough tuning waters using MAP. Good luck.


PJ
This might interest you whether going to the 501 (cost effective for NA - bought mine for my RIP mirage from a salvage yard for 40 bucks since galants are abundant) or not. If so, follow the lead that rhyzin has already started. Bounce ideas off each other.


For me, I just have to adjust accordingly to each mod and model. That's the hard part. Tuning is fun as long it's not a standalone. Ouch, my head hurts from all this thinking.

 

Bahamut, thanks for sharing as always.

I was reading Mirageforums.net to see what you guys had been using for injector solutions. I saw the attempted group buy on the 460cc RX7 injectors and was very interested, but what I need to verify is whether or not we use the same size/shape injectors. I can only assume we have the same fuel rails, but I know our intake manifolds are different. You've seen both, so is there any way you could verify size? They're so much cheaper then any other alternative I've found, so I'm hoping they will fit without issue. (Apparently they'll need clips though...I can deal with that. )

Tell me about it.

 

i plan on roughly going this same route. for lancers, there's gonna be more correction needed it would seem. even though we got the 240cc injectors, you're gonna see corrections in the LO settings in the +30's and +40's with the MAS upgrade alone. increasing fuel pressure with a fpr or upgrading injectors will bring them back down to the teens. upgrading the fuel pump helps out too. more of a safety precaution for me. i think it's really weird that with all the intake upgrades for the mirage, corrections are only in the teens. i guess different characteristics of the engines.

i'm believing that the 609 will be a solid upgrade next, but think it's a bit overkill right now. with fuel mods, the 501 is easily tuned, but needs a custom cai if you're not going the sri route. A/F are adjusted pretty easily and am getting a good .90v-.92v at WOT across the boards with the safc. a pretty solid upgrade with supporting mods.

as for not being able to bounce past .86v on the o2 sensor, i had that problem when i was using the stock fuel pump. for some reason, i was able to get the full range 0-1v when i upgraded fuel pumps. i thought it was strange, but thats what happened. the stock fuel pump only works in a certain range? i've had old posts about it but dunno where they've gone.

 

HK,
All NA Mitsu injectors should fit each other perfectly w/o any washer(s). On my RIP LS, I used 240cc injectors from a 3g eclipse's 4g64, the same color as the lancer (rhyzin has shown me a pic in the past to verify its sameness in size and shape).

As for the RX-7 injectors, I need to verify them with my friends in Orlando this weekend, if possible. I'm getting conflicting info from Import Tuner which has an article on injectors (July 03).

+93 RX-7 TT runs high imp, and they have both primary and secondary injectors. The primary runs 550cc while the secondary runs 850cc. More than enough for 95% of any mirage or lancer TC app. Also, I just need to physically see those injectors.

As for the fuel rail, looks the same. Didn't look too hard. If mixing and matching NA injectors, there is no need to graft injector clips. I'm speaking in terms of all NA Mitsu from +89 (don't have too much experience w/ older models).

There are 300cc, high imp injectors in older galants (two previous gens). Canadians have told me, but I have never verified it. For some odd reason, I haven't seen one in the salvage yard. Well, I'm going to find some info on the net.

 

rhyzin,
Here's my premise:

Stock
A G93 w/ 210cc and 605 MAF.
A G94 w/ 240cc and 605 MAF.
A G64 w/ 240cc and 501 MAF.

At LO setting.
When a G93 upgrades to 240cc and 501 MAF, the ecu can't compensate for the increased air and fuel flow. W/ an AFC and other performance mods, it has to drop into the negative fuel correction. Otherwise, the ECU is flooding idle.

Basing from your R&D, the G94 ecu and the 605 MAF are creating a conservative fuel map. When the bigger 501 MAF is added to the equation, despite having the same 240cc as the G64, the ecu is causing starvation. That's why an AFC is needed to add more fuel to match the airflow.

Everything is built around the performance of a G64. W/ an AFC, it probably needs to tune the fuel curve a bit lower since Mitsu likes to run rich.



Adding the 609 MAF (only the 97 G93 doesn't need to splice into the pin plug).

On the G93, as shown on the above report, the 210cc can't really do the job 100% correctly. I do believe it has reach its peak cycle to effectively power the 609 MAF, even w/ an upgraded FP, after reading idle O2 values.

So far, I don't reccomend WOT until I can further prove some hard data after the break-in period. Nor do I ever want to see fuel correction in the +40 to 50's. That's absurd to see on the graph!

For a G64 w/ a 609 MAF. It should be awesome. The fuel correction shouldn't be that bad on LO setting, but I have serious concerns running at WOT. I don't believe either 210 or 240cc can ever properly cycle its O2 reading at WOT, even with FPR and FP. The injectors can only pump out so much fuel before it gets stuck or wear itself out prematurely.

Note: The 609 MAF is taylored to run 360cc, 390cc, and 450cc. The 210cc and 240cc are nowhere even close. It's like hoping 240cc to push 300 HP flywheel. That's not going to happen in reality.


As for the FP, I haven't put much thought yet. The 97 owner has a Walbro waiting to be installed. I'll think about it when the time comes. I need to solve one set of possible problem/variable at a time.

BTW: it's kinda funny that a former mirager is doing some legwork for the 3g eclipse RS/GS owners. Someone has to break the mold of convential thinking.

Also, when I have the time, I'll drop by the dealership and look at the RA lancer on its possible Hotwire MAF.

 

210cc injectors are not cycling O2 reading properly.

At idle, +3 correction. O2 didn't go beyond .1xx, super lean w/ 2 min wait window.

At idle, +20 correction. O2 was slow reacting like staying on the same value for at most 2 secs at a time. It never went beyond .75x.

At idle, +40 correction and beyond. O2 cycled properly, but its value never went beyond .86x. It also started to kill idle from richness, dropping in the low 600 rpm. It stumbled a lot. A manual can tolerate and adjust quick enough in the 600 rpm range, but it's instant stall for any auto tranny tuners. Auto tranny doesn't like to drop rpm below 720.

 

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...&pagenumber=31

Here are size pics between 605 and 501 MAF. Just scroll down.

 

lol... look what i found...
this is with the stock fuel pump. short ram setup using stock intake elbow and 3kgt K&N fipk with 2.75"x2.75" SQUARE restrictor plate.

i think i have a 3d plot somewhere of when i finally got the gsx fuel pump and i'll get current setup maybe tomorrow or after xmas.

i also second that an injector upgrade will be needed for the 609. which galants ran the 609? i've seen that 90-96 galants ran 275cc injectors but not sure on what engine. i plan on running 310's and feel that it should suffice but am still doing homework on them as well. i'm not quite at that point so i'm not too concerned with it. i wish i could help out with 609 R&D but i'm just not there yet.

i'm projecting that a cai with a 501 will run in the +30%'s on lo settings and a lower range for the hi settings at 42 psi fuel pressure and gsx pump. bump to the standard 44 psi that injectors are rated anyways and those numbers should be in the 20's, which seem safer. this is based on just hooking the 501 to the end of the longer pipe from my aem cai to the tb and tuning for idle. idles sweet at +31%. figured about a foot of piping is missing for a full cai and the additional correction shouldn't be that bad. i'm looking at fabricating a cai at the moment.

12:41 AM 12/24/2003 Merry Christmas Eve everybody!

 

rhyzin, thanks a bunch!!!

The currect plotline is for the 605 MAF hack. If so, techically, I do believe it has more airflow that a 501. A hacked 501 . . . I'm too scared to even tackle it w/o bigger injectors. Indeed, your fuel psi does scare me when you are pushing psi close or beyond DSM at WOT for NA setup. Then again, I don't really know how to add the variable of FPR and FP into the equation. I pretty much can guess right on the money for the FP, but I'm not going to state it as gospel. I know my limitation until I have some hard data backing me.

The past and modern galant never had a 609 MAF, but it's possible with the GVR4 since it has a G63T. There was one in Orlando last Saturday, but I didn't really take the time to gander at it.

That's the conflicting reports on the Galant. I don't have accurate #'s for the galant. 275cc (the G92 MIVEC run this too but unknown on imp) and 300cc are possible. Both seemed too high in either the V6 or I4. I do know they used a previous gen G64 w/ a distribitor (sp). The have in one in a SUV-type Mitsu called the LRV or something and a 2g spyder.


As for the R&D, it'll take some baby steps to get everything concise enough, breaking convential thinking.

From your projections on the 501, your fuel correction is going beyond what I've anticipated. You are putting more correction than a G93 with lesser cc and bigger MAF. I need to figure tha variable that is bumping the G94 that high.

Here are some logic that I'm proposing.
!) The G94 can hold a bit more power than a G93 because of displacement issue.
2) 240cc injectors are bigger than 210cc, despite having the same conservative MAF.
3) Following the logic statement, the G94 needs more fuel, but its consumption so far at LO setting is greater than anticipated. Something is throwing a monkeywrench. Is the cali spec ECU being more conservative when reading more airflow? Is the O2 sensor pulling timing a bit like the RX-8 when detecting too much heat in the cat or wheel splipping (the latter isn't an issue for either cali spec mirage or lancer)? Is the knock sensor detecting something in the mixture for the G94, which the G93 never had a knock sensor?

My expectation is +12 to 20% correction for a G94 w/ a 501 MAF. By no means, tune it this way. I need to hammer out my theory basing on your tuning.

Right now, I want to bring my R&D to the 3g eclipse guys. I need some hard data from those owners to at least put some backbone. I'm going to contact DIM for his logic, practicality, and book smart. He's usually the guy to correct any unconvential thinking of mine.

 

RX-7 injectors

Now, I'm getting conflicting reports from the 3rd gen mirages/colts/summits.

http://www.4g61t.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4261

No pics.


Another article from them
Karman MAF to Hotwire

http://www.4g61t.com/forum/viewtopic...&highlight=dsm