STi or EVO
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Getting back on topic here.
I talked to my friend Cesar today about the STI vs Evo thing. He is a well known rally driver who has won 4 times the French Rally Championship on the European Rally Championship once. He was present at the Sport Auto (French Edition) Evo vs STI test (so was I) and of course he drove both cars. I asked him what he thought about the STI, and he told me that it understeers like hell. I insisted and said "but you could just throw it in, right?" and he replied "No, it just goes straight!" I then asked about the brakes. He took the STI down the Turini special stage (which obviously he knows inside out) and said that after 4 kms (3 miles approx), there were no brakes left in the sense that they faded so much he couldnt carry on driving. He added that the STI's gear lever is very unprecise and the car not well balanced, too heavy on the front.
I'm talking about the twisty road use here and I'm telling it like it is, no bull. Dont take it from me, take it from someone who knows about driving and cars!
(I'd like to add that Cesar set up my suspensions for me
) :headbng2:
I talked to my friend Cesar today about the STI vs Evo thing. He is a well known rally driver who has won 4 times the French Rally Championship on the European Rally Championship once. He was present at the Sport Auto (French Edition) Evo vs STI test (so was I) and of course he drove both cars. I asked him what he thought about the STI, and he told me that it understeers like hell. I insisted and said "but you could just throw it in, right?" and he replied "No, it just goes straight!" I then asked about the brakes. He took the STI down the Turini special stage (which obviously he knows inside out) and said that after 4 kms (3 miles approx), there were no brakes left in the sense that they faded so much he couldnt carry on driving. He added that the STI's gear lever is very unprecise and the car not well balanced, too heavy on the front.
I'm talking about the twisty road use here and I'm telling it like it is, no bull. Dont take it from me, take it from someone who knows about driving and cars!
(I'd like to add that Cesar set up my suspensions for me
) :headbng2:
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OK let me get this straight. Type RA vs stock Evo and it's 2 seconds faster. Anyone tried doing a comparison with the RA vs Evo Extreme / Zero Fighter etc. Since it really should be STi vs Ralliart, not Mitsu.
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From: Tokyo
Originally posted by Claudius
Getting back on topic here.
I talked to my friend Cesar today about the STI vs Evo thing. He is a well known rally driver who has won 4 times the French Rally Championship on the European Rally Championship once. He was present at the Sport Auto (French Edition) Evo vs STI test (so was I) and of course he drove both cars. I asked him what he thought about the STI, and he told me that it understeers like hell. I insisted and said "but you could just throw it in, right?" and he replied "No, it just goes straight!" I then asked about the brakes. He took the STI down the Turini special stage (which obviously he knows inside out) and said that after 4 kms (3 miles approx), there were no brakes left in the sense that they faded so much he couldnt carry on driving. He added that the STI's gear lever is very unprecise and the car not well balanced, too heavy on the front.
Getting back on topic here.
I talked to my friend Cesar today about the STI vs Evo thing. He is a well known rally driver who has won 4 times the French Rally Championship on the European Rally Championship once. He was present at the Sport Auto (French Edition) Evo vs STI test (so was I) and of course he drove both cars. I asked him what he thought about the STI, and he told me that it understeers like hell. I insisted and said "but you could just throw it in, right?" and he replied "No, it just goes straight!" I then asked about the brakes. He took the STI down the Turini special stage (which obviously he knows inside out) and said that after 4 kms (3 miles approx), there were no brakes left in the sense that they faded so much he couldnt carry on driving. He added that the STI's gear lever is very unprecise and the car not well balanced, too heavy on the front.
Given that the STI, if anything, has a better gear lever setup (hint - the tranny and center dif is under it, not in the front of the car under the engine). I'm afraid that I'm getting the impression he drove an older style STI. They had dodgier brakes, and especially up to ver. V, not that nice a tranny, especially compared to the current 6-speed unit, something I've heard *no* complaints about. I certainly didn't notice a "very unprecise" feel to the unit I drove - though once again, in comparison to a rally car, it may feel so.
I love rally drivers, I think they are highly skilled drivers, but witnessing their performance in road racing venues, I'm not going to base my road or track-going vehicle upon their suggestions.
Paul Hansen
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What you're saying about the rally drivers must be supposed to mean that you don't want to base your road/track going vehicle on their suggestions because you think that would be too dangerous for you. Otherwise it's total nonsense. They tested roadcars there.
Anyway, the Subaru is well known for suffering from chronic understeer and not beeing as precise as the Evo, even the new model as has been stated in *every* test I've read comparing the two cars. Now I don't believe motorjournalists, but at least that's a tendency.
The main question here is whether you have ever been in the car with a racing driver of any kind, especially a rally driver? I suspect you haven't from your comments...
Anyway, the Subaru is well known for suffering from chronic understeer and not beeing as precise as the Evo, even the new model as has been stated in *every* test I've read comparing the two cars. Now I don't believe motorjournalists, but at least that's a tendency.
The main question here is whether you have ever been in the car with a racing driver of any kind, especially a rally driver? I suspect you haven't from your comments...
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Paul,
Same brakes on different cars doesn't mean that they have the same braking performance/problems. I think you need to take into consideration weight differences, cooling, ability to take corners at different speeds (determines how hard you need to brake), etc.
Same brakes on different cars doesn't mean that they have the same braking performance/problems. I think you need to take into consideration weight differences, cooling, ability to take corners at different speeds (determines how hard you need to brake), etc.
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From: Tokyo
Originally posted by Michaelk
What you're saying about the rally drivers must be supposed to mean that you don't want to base your road/track going vehicle on their suggestions because you think that would be too dangerous for you. Otherwise it's total nonsense. They tested roadcars there.
Anyway, the Subaru is well known for suffering from chronic understeer and not beeing as precise as the Evo, even the new model as has been stated in *every* test I've read comparing the two cars. Now I don't believe motorjournalists, but at least that's a tendency.
The main question here is whether you have ever been in the car with a racing driver of any kind, especially a rally driver? I suspect you haven't from your comments...
What you're saying about the rally drivers must be supposed to mean that you don't want to base your road/track going vehicle on their suggestions because you think that would be too dangerous for you. Otherwise it's total nonsense. They tested roadcars there.
Anyway, the Subaru is well known for suffering from chronic understeer and not beeing as precise as the Evo, even the new model as has been stated in *every* test I've read comparing the two cars. Now I don't believe motorjournalists, but at least that's a tendency.
The main question here is whether you have ever been in the car with a racing driver of any kind, especially a rally driver? I suspect you haven't from your comments...
I didn't dispute the "chronic" understeer in the standard STI model. I did just note that there will be a difference between a car with all-season's vs. performance rubber. And *every* test I've read includes the one where the RA Type C beat out the Evo VII. I didn't read one where the *standard* STI beat it out. I'm in Tokyo, I get to read and report about a bit more current models than Europe and Overseas in general.
Paul Hansen
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From: Tokyo
Originally posted by 3171
Paul,
Same brakes on different cars doesn't mean that they have the same braking performance/problems. I think you need to take into consideration weight differences, cooling, ability to take corners at different speeds (determines how hard you need to brake), etc.
Paul,
Same brakes on different cars doesn't mean that they have the same braking performance/problems. I think you need to take into consideration weight differences, cooling, ability to take corners at different speeds (determines how hard you need to brake), etc.
Paul Hansen
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From: Germany
I think I've found the thing that you don't understand, Paul. The track where they tested the cars is the "col de turini" as Claudius said, which is a tarmac stage, in fact the most famous rally tarmac stage in the world. The findings that you will find there have far more relevance for road racing than track findings, because they are actual roads. This has nothing to do with some desert racing or whatever. Now, I already said that I don't trust motorjournalists and the things they say are only there for me to find a general trend like I said. Which track did the RA C beat the VII on and which tires were both of them using? And finally, which magazine did that test? I don't know if you get that much more current or relevant information, even though you live in Japan. I've lived there myself and go there quite often and basically the standard of the motoring press there is lower than in some european countries, f.e. Germany where I live now. You will get more information about the Japanese market of course, but I wouldn't call their test that good. Have a look at Sport Auto's Supertest for a good example, although they are also quite biased, but the test in itself is the most professional I have seen anywhere.
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From: Tokyo
Originally posted by Michaelk
I think I've found the thing that you don't understand, Paul. The track where they tested the cars is the "col de turini" as Claudius said, which is a tarmac stage, in fact the most famous rally tarmac stage in the world. The findings that you will find there have far more relevance for road racing than track findings, because they are actual roads. This has nothing to do with some desert racing or whatever. Now, I already said that I don't trust motorjournalists and the things they say are only there for me to find a general trend like I said. Which track did the RA C beat the VII on and which tires were both of them using? And finally, which magazine did that test? I don't know if you get that much more current or relevant information, even though you live in Japan. I've lived there myself and go there quite often and basically the standard of the motoring press there is lower than in some european countries, f.e. Germany where I live now. You will get more information about the Japanese market of course, but I wouldn't call their test that good. Have a look at Sport Auto's Supertest for a good example, although they are also quite biased, but the test in itself is the most professional I have seen anywhere.
I think I've found the thing that you don't understand, Paul. The track where they tested the cars is the "col de turini" as Claudius said, which is a tarmac stage, in fact the most famous rally tarmac stage in the world. The findings that you will find there have far more relevance for road racing than track findings, because they are actual roads. This has nothing to do with some desert racing or whatever. Now, I already said that I don't trust motorjournalists and the things they say are only there for me to find a general trend like I said. Which track did the RA C beat the VII on and which tires were both of them using? And finally, which magazine did that test? I don't know if you get that much more current or relevant information, even though you live in Japan. I've lived there myself and go there quite often and basically the standard of the motoring press there is lower than in some european countries, f.e. Germany where I live now. You will get more information about the Japanese market of course, but I wouldn't call their test that good. Have a look at Sport Auto's Supertest for a good example, although they are also quite biased, but the test in itself is the most professional I have seen anywhere.
I believe the magazine was Driver, and no, I don't have the exact track. I know it wasn't Tsukuba circuit, nor Twin Ring Motegi. I feel that it was one of the tracks down in the Fuji direction. The times were in the minute and a half range per lap, and yes, I wish I had bought the magazine at the time, but I didn't.
The tyres were the ones that came stock with the Type C. They are, I believe, Bridgestone performance rubber. I don't have the exact name for them, they were of the 0?0 family. And that was the point I was making at the beginning - among other things, the Type C shipped with performance rubber instead of all-season rubber - just like the Evo series. Not to take away much from the Evo's, but one of the reasons they always did so well in stock vs. stock tests is because stock, the Evo came on performance tyres, such as the current S02's, vs. the all-seasons that Subaru always put on the STI's. I'm sure you know quite well what a difference tyres can make in overall times. I know on my car, I can pick up at least 2 seconds at Twin Ring Motegi moving from the stock all-seasons tyres to same-sized S03's.
I agree, Japanese journo's aren't the most professional lot (nor the best of drivers), but that's what is here. When, or if, the STI RA Type C is tested overseas, I would love to see the results.
Paul Hansen
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Originally posted by shirokuma
I do understand it was tested on tarmac. I just don't take his words as gospel, that's all.
I do understand it was tested on tarmac. I just don't take his words as gospel, that's all.
Originally posted by shirokuma
I've driven the STI, the brakes don't fade within 5km unless you are pushing it very far beyond it's limits, which as a pro rally driver, I'm sure he can, and did do.
I've driven the STI, the brakes don't fade within 5km unless you are pushing it very far beyond it's limits, which as a pro rally driver, I'm sure he can, and did do.
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From: Earth
From what I've seen, the "normal" STi comes with Bridgestone Potenza RE040s. There is no way that those tires can be considered all season tires. They definitely appear to be performance tires, thus I don't believe the STi's problem with understeering should be blamed on the tires.
http://www.bridgestone-eu.com/englis...duct/re040.htm
http://www.bridgestone-eu.com/englis...duct/re040.htm
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From: Portland, OR
Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but "If you need a cruiser, which I think you do, the STI is indeed a wiser choice. " sounds like a not-so-subtle insult. Am I reading it wrong? The conversation's been pretty civil so far.
There was another rally driver with some experience that posted on i-club a while back, stating his preference for the STi, in that it doesn't do everything for you electronically. I'll try to find the link.
Meanwhile, I'm sure everyone knows just exactly how much objectivity you're going to find on this board.
There was another rally driver with some experience that posted on i-club a while back, stating his preference for the STi, in that it doesn't do everything for you electronically. I'll try to find the link.
Meanwhile, I'm sure everyone knows just exactly how much objectivity you're going to find on this board.
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From: Tokyo
Originally posted by Claudius
You surely know people who are more qualified than him, then? Maybe the Jap journalists or a Ferrari friend of yours?
Now that's stating the obvious. If you brake before you need to, you are slow. If you need a cruiser, which I think you do, the STI is indeed a wiser choice.
You surely know people who are more qualified than him, then? Maybe the Jap journalists or a Ferrari friend of yours?
Now that's stating the obvious. If you brake before you need to, you are slow. If you need a cruiser, which I think you do, the STI is indeed a wiser choice.
I was stating the obvious because it doesn't seem all that obvious to a lot of people. John Boston, as I mentioned before, is a very good pro driver, and with *his driving style* he had no problem with brake fade. I don't take one rally driver's word as gospel because there is one, no context, and two, I have no idea what his driving style is like. Accept the fact that top drivers are individuals, and they all have individual driving styles. Those will affect their perceptions of cars. That's why I brought up the point about the driver that told me that every other car besides a ferrari or mclaren is ****e.
Personal experience with Bridgestone rubber, the S02's are superior to all other Bridgestone (street) tyres at the track except for the new S03's (which I highly recommend). I also stated that the Type C had revised front suspension geometry to reduce understeer. Shall I post this 5 more times before you guys once again attack without reading through the entire statement? My reference towards the rubber is towards track times, along with the fact that lesser rubber will understeer more. I participated in a tyre test on the track, street, and safety course at Motegi with Pirelli P Zero Russo's, Michelin Pilots and Bridgestone S03's, all on the same make of car. Depending on the rubber, some cars understeered more (Michelins) vs. the cars with the S03's or the Pirelli's.
Regards,
Paul Hansen
