AEM EMS problems
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Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Long Island
AEM EMS problems
I posted this verbatim on the AEM EMS forums, but I was hoping maybe someone here could help as well.
EDIT: For reference on what's in my setup check here. Honestly I can't think what would cause the boost to cut AND IDC to drop before the wastegate opens aside from the EMS. Suggestions are welcome. I should be logging and tuning shortly.
First off lemme introduce myself. My name's Andrew. The Lancer Jeff at ILP Performance was trying to get running is mine. Well, thanks to Mike W. It's running and driveable now, however it's BARELY running and barely driveable.
There's a bunch of problems and here's what we're thinking. We're running off a MAP sensor now (a 3 bar sensor) and the MAF is making a nice shelf decoration in my closet. Apparently the stock MAF has a barometric pressure sensor in it that the EMS isn't getting a signal for now. I don't know if or how much that could effect its running, but it's a possible variable. Now here's a description of some of the problems so hopefully we can shed light on what's really going on.
First off I'm running rich as hell. 12:1 AFR, car seems to love it, doesn't choke on the fuel, but I can smell unburnt fuel in her exhaust and she spits black smoke. That's not a problem so much as detail on the scenario. Here's the BIG problem.
When she builds up boost she can't pass 5psi. Till then it's fine. Spools nice and low (a bit below 2,000rpms) and builds to about 5psi then leans out rapidly and makes no power. I don't have logs of this, but Jeff explained to me that they IDC went from 25% (Walbro 2g GS-T fuel pump feeding 440cc injectors @ 25% IDC = PLENTY of fuel) to next to nothing (or maybe nothing...I forget.) It's like hitting a fuel cut while driving only my engine is at far more risk. This is the major problem.
As someone else mentioned in another thread, the tach is somewhat jumpy, but my real concern is that she sometimes revs to something like 4-5k for a few seconds and then drops back down to her given 1k idle. On occasion she randomly stalls. Coming to a stop in neutral she's died while idling and breaking a few times, and I'm getting quite good at turning the ignition while steering with a locked wheel and stepping on the brake...but I shouldn't have to be.
I'll lean her out a bit once I get a laptop (my current one's battery holds no charge). By next week I'll try to get some logging done on my drive to work, and I'll take a little fuel out of the mix to try and make the smell of my commute (as well as my gas mileage) tolerable. If you need more details of the setup I'll provide them or have Jeff provide them (I know the parts and most of how they're set up, but not even close to everything). We've had few successes and several problems with the EMS so far. If it wasn't for the possibility of actually having it working properly and providing such a wide range of tunability I'd have scrapped it already. I'm hoping someone can give me a good reason why I should keep it by helping to solve the problems it's causing.
If maps or logs are needed I'll try to provide them as soon as I'm able...probably within the next two weeks. Until then I'm hoping I can get some possibilities, suggestions or fixes.
Andrew
There's a bunch of problems and here's what we're thinking. We're running off a MAP sensor now (a 3 bar sensor) and the MAF is making a nice shelf decoration in my closet. Apparently the stock MAF has a barometric pressure sensor in it that the EMS isn't getting a signal for now. I don't know if or how much that could effect its running, but it's a possible variable. Now here's a description of some of the problems so hopefully we can shed light on what's really going on.
First off I'm running rich as hell. 12:1 AFR, car seems to love it, doesn't choke on the fuel, but I can smell unburnt fuel in her exhaust and she spits black smoke. That's not a problem so much as detail on the scenario. Here's the BIG problem.
When she builds up boost she can't pass 5psi. Till then it's fine. Spools nice and low (a bit below 2,000rpms) and builds to about 5psi then leans out rapidly and makes no power. I don't have logs of this, but Jeff explained to me that they IDC went from 25% (Walbro 2g GS-T fuel pump feeding 440cc injectors @ 25% IDC = PLENTY of fuel) to next to nothing (or maybe nothing...I forget.) It's like hitting a fuel cut while driving only my engine is at far more risk. This is the major problem.
As someone else mentioned in another thread, the tach is somewhat jumpy, but my real concern is that she sometimes revs to something like 4-5k for a few seconds and then drops back down to her given 1k idle. On occasion she randomly stalls. Coming to a stop in neutral she's died while idling and breaking a few times, and I'm getting quite good at turning the ignition while steering with a locked wheel and stepping on the brake...but I shouldn't have to be.
I'll lean her out a bit once I get a laptop (my current one's battery holds no charge). By next week I'll try to get some logging done on my drive to work, and I'll take a little fuel out of the mix to try and make the smell of my commute (as well as my gas mileage) tolerable. If you need more details of the setup I'll provide them or have Jeff provide them (I know the parts and most of how they're set up, but not even close to everything). We've had few successes and several problems with the EMS so far. If it wasn't for the possibility of actually having it working properly and providing such a wide range of tunability I'd have scrapped it already. I'm hoping someone can give me a good reason why I should keep it by helping to solve the problems it's causing.
If maps or logs are needed I'll try to provide them as soon as I'm able...probably within the next two weeks. Until then I'm hoping I can get some possibilities, suggestions or fixes.
Andrew
Last edited by HobieKopek; May 19, 2003 at 12:08 AM.
wow. i don't know much about the ems, but i'm curious as to what sensors it uses as well as what maps and values are adjustable or definable. the thing about the barometric sensor is that it can also adjust ignition timing. i've read of DSMs losing power to automatic adjustment of timing from the ecu. i would think that all the limits would be in the ems itself if it truly is standalone. it would come down to what sensors are necessory to run the car as to what can be omitted. but what the hell do i know. i wish i had one to fool around with. 
you must be absolutley serious about modding this car if you have an EMS. craaaaaaazy!
you must be absolutley serious about modding this car if you have an EMS. craaaaaaazy!
Last edited by rhyzin; May 19, 2003 at 01:03 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Long Island
Yeah...pretty much anything controlled by the stock ECU and more. I'ts a true standalone. My stock ECU is not in my car. Yes, I'm very serious, but can we please keep this on topic? Any suggestions or possible answers?
Otherwise please just PM me or talk to me on AIM or something.
Otherwise please just PM me or talk to me on AIM or something.
I can't offer much in the way of help.. but what I can tell you is the my brother installed a turbo in his Mazda MP3 (protege) and had some somewhat similar rev and stall problems. It ended up being due to a vaccuum leak. They are hard as hell to find and the one that was causing his problems didn't register on the vacuum gauge at all either. I can't remember where it was but there was a crack in a piece of piping and that was the source of the leak basically. So I'd do a double check of the vaccuum lines and double triply check any of the wiring and fuel line splices that you may or may not have in the engine compartment. I know jack **** about EMS so I can lend only negatively useful thought in that department.
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Joined: Apr 2002
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From: TB, FL
DSM retards timing, because it's getting high knock count. When the knock count is through the roof, timing is retraded severely, and it will take few days of normal driving to get it back to normal.
Sounds like your MAP isn't reading properly. Stall at idle or stop . . . temp lost of air, and the ecu doesn't have enough fuzzy logic to understand to draw more air. So, it kills itself and stalls out.
Boost cut usually indicates a vacuum leak.
That's the thing about MAP. Can make big HP if tuned properly but it takes a lot of effort.
MAF can limit HP a bit, but it sure is easy to tune. Well, I have hotwire on my car.
BTW: I'm wondering why you have chosen EMS. There are Electromotive TEC3 and Motec . . . both have longer history. Not saying you should switch.
Sounds like your MAP isn't reading properly. Stall at idle or stop . . . temp lost of air, and the ecu doesn't have enough fuzzy logic to understand to draw more air. So, it kills itself and stalls out.
Boost cut usually indicates a vacuum leak.
That's the thing about MAP. Can make big HP if tuned properly but it takes a lot of effort.
MAF can limit HP a bit, but it sure is easy to tune. Well, I have hotwire on my car.
BTW: I'm wondering why you have chosen EMS. There are Electromotive TEC3 and Motec . . . both have longer history. Not saying you should switch.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Long Island
MAF will also make it harder for me to have the BoV VTA. I don't even know how to begin checkin' for a vaccuum leak. When I take her back down for the clutch install we'll do some testing. Jeff's kinda pissed cuz I took her back before he could finish, but what can I say? A guy's gotta get to work and my sister's home so I can't borrow her car anymore.
I went AEM for the tunability and alleged ease of tuning. The software and interface themselves seem quite simple. I can't fault AEM for that. My biggest complaint (kinda obviously) is their lack of support.
As for the stalls they've pretty much ceased. It seems like she was stalling when in gear and around 1k rpms (decelerating of course). She DOES however sometimes drop RPMs at idle VERY low (sub 500) and rev back up to around 1k (the current set idle).
BTW, I appreciate the responses, guys. I will definitely check whatever I can myself and have Jeff check the rest next time I get to go down there.
I went AEM for the tunability and alleged ease of tuning. The software and interface themselves seem quite simple. I can't fault AEM for that. My biggest complaint (kinda obviously) is their lack of support.
As for the stalls they've pretty much ceased. It seems like she was stalling when in gear and around 1k rpms (decelerating of course). She DOES however sometimes drop RPMs at idle VERY low (sub 500) and rev back up to around 1k (the current set idle).
BTW, I appreciate the responses, guys. I will definitely check whatever I can myself and have Jeff check the rest next time I get to go down there.
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From: TB, FL
Another possibilty is from CART. If the ecu detects you are getting huge surges, it will tell the BOV to vent prematurely. I don't know if this is your case.
"It seems like she was stalling when in gear and around 1k rpms (decelerating of course)."
When you decelerate, you're getting some hiccups in the airflow. It's not steady like a stop light or running the interstate.
"She DOES however sometimes drop RPMs at idle VERY low (sub 500) and rev back up to around 1k (the current set idle)."
A/F mixture reading is off on the MAP. Still not constant enough.
"It seems like she was stalling when in gear and around 1k rpms (decelerating of course)."
When you decelerate, you're getting some hiccups in the airflow. It's not steady like a stop light or running the interstate.
"She DOES however sometimes drop RPMs at idle VERY low (sub 500) and rev back up to around 1k (the current set idle)."
A/F mixture reading is off on the MAP. Still not constant enough.
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Thread Starter
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Also posted the two suggestions of faulty MAP readings or vacuum leak to AEM. Still no reply (***********). :cough:
EDIT: Woo! Got a reply. Once I get a delivery date on the clutch I'm a schedule some time at ILP and see what we can't do.
EDIT: Woo! Got a reply. Once I get a delivery date on the clutch I'm a schedule some time at ILP and see what we can't do.
Last edited by HobieKopek; May 22, 2003 at 05:03 PM.
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From: San Diego, CA
The problem is that there's really not a lot of users (read: none) that are running an EMS on the Lancer right now. That forum gets little or no hits.
The only reason I actually popped in there and replied was that Mike W. from RRE pointed it out to me when I asked him if anyone was running one yet on the Lancers.
If any of the AEM guys actually did respond to your thread, the response probably would have been "call us". Your questions weren't the sort that are easy to answer in a forum. It wouldn't be efficient. You get them on the phone and they can go back and forth with you a lot easier, know what I mean?
The AEM techs are very helpful, especially by phone. Call AEM and ask to be transferred to the AEM EMS tech line. Or, if you have the number handy, just call it directly.
If you don't get them on the phone, LEAVE A MESSAGE. They WILL call you back!
I can think of a couple times when we've installed an EMS in a car and it hasn't run right. Many times it's been just ONE stupid option that had the wrong value in it.
(BTW, I just responded again based on this response, so you might wanna go check it out!)
The only reason I actually popped in there and replied was that Mike W. from RRE pointed it out to me when I asked him if anyone was running one yet on the Lancers.
If any of the AEM guys actually did respond to your thread, the response probably would have been "call us". Your questions weren't the sort that are easy to answer in a forum. It wouldn't be efficient. You get them on the phone and they can go back and forth with you a lot easier, know what I mean?
The AEM techs are very helpful, especially by phone. Call AEM and ask to be transferred to the AEM EMS tech line. Or, if you have the number handy, just call it directly.
If you don't get them on the phone, LEAVE A MESSAGE. They WILL call you back!
I can think of a couple times when we've installed an EMS in a car and it hasn't run right. Many times it's been just ONE stupid option that had the wrong value in it.
(BTW, I just responded again based on this response, so you might wanna go check it out!)
Last edited by eslai; May 27, 2003 at 02:09 AM.
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From: Long Island
I believe Jeff even had a local certified AEM tech over there at one point and they couldn't even get her running. After Mike W's response he got her to idle and a few days later he got her to run under load. Jeff's been calling since mid April (up until he released the car back to me because I needed to get to work and my sister was back from school). I didn't think you'd check on em.net anymore. Again, thanks for the replies. Anywho, thanks as always.
EDIT: As for people checking...yeah, I know it's super low traffic. The unit's so new it doesn't even have a mod yet.
EDIT: As for people checking...yeah, I know it's super low traffic. The unit's so new it doesn't even have a mod yet.
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Yeah, for some reason or another I stopped monitoring these forums. I think I got busy maybe?? Dunno!
Anyhow, now that some friends of mine are running Evos, I had to come back on.
Well heck, now you've got Lowell responding to your thread. Bring on the big boys.
Anyhow, now that some friends of mine are running Evos, I had to come back on.
Well heck, now you've got Lowell responding to your thread. Bring on the big boys.
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Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Long Island
Yeah, I'm glad I'm getting fresh possibilities again. Clutch comes tomorrow, so I'll figure out a time with Jeff and we'll see what we can't test while I'm down there. I hope to leave the car with him sometime this summer so that we can get the problem resolved and some tuning done...unfortunately I don't have a spare ride or spare money. Oh, and welcome back. 
Last edited by HobieKopek; May 28, 2003 at 08:53 PM.
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From: Long Island
Clutch goes in weekend after this. Hopefully some EMS issues resolved then as well. In the meantime I've had plenty of problems to keep me busy and broke. 
They seem to be ongoing. 
They seem to be ongoing.
