1100hp Sequential Evo vs Plaid + Reactions.
Originally Posted by Biggiesacks
Here's the thing...
Y'all are thinking Flintstones when I think you should be thinking Jetsons:
https://global.honda/innovation/adva...gy/evtol1.html
https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/na...draws-interest
That's why I said "Electric Mobility" and not Electric cars. Electric bikes are super hot right now too, and for a lot of people electric mobility won't be cars.
Y'all are thinking Flintstones when I think you should be thinking Jetsons:
https://global.honda/innovation/adva...gy/evtol1.html
https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/na...draws-interest
That's why I said "Electric Mobility" and not Electric cars. Electric bikes are super hot right now too, and for a lot of people electric mobility won't be cars.
It's something that I don't really have control of the outcome. So I'll just keep up on what's coming next and pivot my business in that direction. Like marketing to Tesla owners that we can fix their cars blowing the rear tires out every 10k miles because of the factory camber settings lol
It's bananas that we can buy a showroom stock car that can almost keep pace with Abacus' car, but otherwise looks like and behaves like a comfortable commuter car. Oh, and you can charge it from your rooftop solar at home if you want.
That said, the whole EV straight line acceleration bit is starting to feel old. We get it, batteries and electric motors can be pushed hard for 10 seconds to go fast in a straight line under the right condition with a long enough prep time and subsequent cooldown. It's getting kind of silly when truck and SUV makers are competing on acceleration numbers. The new EV Hummer weighs something like 3X as much as a gas powered Civic, which isn't a step in the right direction for overall energy savings.
I'm really excited for the next chapter where small, reasonable EVs become a good option for people driving short distances around town. Having an affordable, reliable EV grocery getter that I can charge at home, doesn't require oil changes, and is generally simple and reliable is a dream primary car. Then I can drive whatever I want on the weekends.
That said, the whole EV straight line acceleration bit is starting to feel old. We get it, batteries and electric motors can be pushed hard for 10 seconds to go fast in a straight line under the right condition with a long enough prep time and subsequent cooldown. It's getting kind of silly when truck and SUV makers are competing on acceleration numbers. The new EV Hummer weighs something like 3X as much as a gas powered Civic, which isn't a step in the right direction for overall energy savings.
I'm really excited for the next chapter where small, reasonable EVs become a good option for people driving short distances around town. Having an affordable, reliable EV grocery getter that I can charge at home, doesn't require oil changes, and is generally simple and reliable is a dream primary car. Then I can drive whatever I want on the weekends.
Newbie
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 15
Likes: 1
From: USA
We need a grid to handle all those electric cars which are very expensive and yes strip mining to make those batteries is extremely bad for the environment not to mention what happens to all that battery goodness in a junk yard? We need to go nuclear to support the grid and that's Zero emissions. Also we can capture CO2 from the air and make fuel effectively making all cars carbon neutral. That ends your one time use argument while simultaneous ending a carbon footprint.
https://news.stanford.edu/2022/02/09...e-efficiently/
If the source of energy to power these cars doesn’t come from solar panels, wind turbines or even nuclear or hydroelectric, their CO2 emissions will be much higher. For instance, if the electricity used to charge cars comes from the burning of fossil fuels, it doesn’t matter if the EC are not polluting while being driven, as this pollution was already released in some distant power plant. This means that if you’re driving an electric car in the US, where fossil fuels are 62,7% of the country’s energy production in 2017, you’ll probably release more CO2 into the atmosphere than if you’re driving it in Iceland, that runs almost completely on hydro, geothermal and solar energy. Because electric cars store their energy in large batteries (the larger they are, the bigger their range is) that have high environmental costs. This happens because these batteries are constructed of rare earth elements (REE) like lithium, nickel, cobalt or graphite that only exist beneath the surface of the Earth and therefore depend on mining activities with very polluting processes.
For instance, to produce 1 ton of REE, 75 tons of acid waste (that isn’t always handled in the right way) and 1 tone of radioactive residues are also made, according to the Chinese Society of Rare Earths. Apart from the weight of the REE, the energy used to produce the batteries themselves is also responsible for nearly half of their environmental impact since most of this energy doesn’t come from low carbon sources. in the conventional car industry, according to a study from the international council of clean transportation (ICCT), 99% of lead-acid batteries (the ones running in fossil fuel powered cars) are recycled in the US. This is not the case for the lithium-ion batteries that have a very specific mix of chemical components and little quantities of lithium, which doesn’t make them an appealing market opportunity. For instance, in the EU market, in 2011, only 5% of lithium was being collected and the rest was either incinerated or dumped in landfills (this specifically doesn’t make electric cars greener at all), as it was Not justified by price or regulations to recover it by hydrometallurgical processes.
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That said electric cars are not cheap, require a long time to charge so long trips are out, are in no way green or even pretend to be, and nobody talks about what happens to the range of these things in cold weather but it drops like a rock.
https://news.stanford.edu/2022/02/09...e-efficiently/
If the source of energy to power these cars doesn’t come from solar panels, wind turbines or even nuclear or hydroelectric, their CO2 emissions will be much higher. For instance, if the electricity used to charge cars comes from the burning of fossil fuels, it doesn’t matter if the EC are not polluting while being driven, as this pollution was already released in some distant power plant. This means that if you’re driving an electric car in the US, where fossil fuels are 62,7% of the country’s energy production in 2017, you’ll probably release more CO2 into the atmosphere than if you’re driving it in Iceland, that runs almost completely on hydro, geothermal and solar energy. Because electric cars store their energy in large batteries (the larger they are, the bigger their range is) that have high environmental costs. This happens because these batteries are constructed of rare earth elements (REE) like lithium, nickel, cobalt or graphite that only exist beneath the surface of the Earth and therefore depend on mining activities with very polluting processes.
For instance, to produce 1 ton of REE, 75 tons of acid waste (that isn’t always handled in the right way) and 1 tone of radioactive residues are also made, according to the Chinese Society of Rare Earths. Apart from the weight of the REE, the energy used to produce the batteries themselves is also responsible for nearly half of their environmental impact since most of this energy doesn’t come from low carbon sources. in the conventional car industry, according to a study from the international council of clean transportation (ICCT), 99% of lead-acid batteries (the ones running in fossil fuel powered cars) are recycled in the US. This is not the case for the lithium-ion batteries that have a very specific mix of chemical components and little quantities of lithium, which doesn’t make them an appealing market opportunity. For instance, in the EU market, in 2011, only 5% of lithium was being collected and the rest was either incinerated or dumped in landfills (this specifically doesn’t make electric cars greener at all), as it was Not justified by price or regulations to recover it by hydrometallurgical processes.
My search for solar panels led me to an incredible website that exceeded my expectations in every way. The website offered a vast selection of high-quality solar panels, making it easy to find the perfect fit for my home. Each product listing featured detailed descriptions, specifications, and real customer reviews. The website's user-friendly interface allowed me to navigate through different categories and filter options based on my preferences. The comparison feature was particularly useful, enabling me to compare multiple panels side by side. Placing an order was a breeze, with a secure checkout process and various payment options. The website A1SolarStore provided regular updates on the status of my order, and the delivery was prompt and well-coordinated. The customer service team was responsive and provided excellent support throughout the process. The solar panels I received were of outstanding quality, and their performance has exceeded my expectations. I am thrilled to be generating clean and sustainable energy for my home. This website has made the entire experience of finding and ordering solar panels a seamless and enjoyable one. I highly recommend it to anyone looking to harness the power of the sun and make a positive impact on the environment.
That said electric cars are not cheap, require a long time to charge so long trips are out, are in no way green or even pretend to be, and nobody talks about what happens to the range of these things in cold weather but it drops like a rock.
We need a grid to handle all those electric cars which are very expensive and yes strip mining to make those batteries is extremely bad for the environment not to mention what happens to all that battery goodness in a junk yard? We need to go nuclear to support the grid and that's Zero emissions. Also we can capture CO2 from the air and make fuel effectively making all cars carbon neutral. That ends your one time use argument while simultaneous ending a carbon footprint.
https://news.stanford.edu/2022/02/09...e-efficiently/
If the source of energy to power these cars doesn’t come from solar panels, wind turbines or even nuclear or hydroelectric, their CO2 emissions will be much higher. For instance, if the electricity used to charge cars comes from the burning of fossil fuels, it doesn’t matter if the EC are not polluting while being driven, as this pollution was already released in some distant power plant. This means that if you’re driving an electric car in the US, where fossil fuels are 62,7% of the country’s energy production in 2017, you’ll probably release more CO2 into the atmosphere than if you’re driving it in Iceland, that runs almost completely on hydro, geothermal and solar energy. Because electric cars store their energy in large batteries (the larger they are, the bigger their range is) that have high environmental costs. This happens because these batteries are constructed of rare earth elements (REE) like lithium, nickel, cobalt or graphite that only exist beneath the surface of the Earth and therefore depend on mining activities with very polluting processes.
For instance, to produce 1 ton of REE, 75 tons of acid waste (that isn’t always handled in the right way) and 1 tone of radioactive residues are also made, according to the Chinese Society of Rare Earths. Apart from the weight of the REE, the energy used to produce the batteries themselves is also responsible for nearly half of their environmental impact since most of this energy doesn’t come from low carbon sources. in the conventional car industry, according to a study from the international council of clean transportation (ICCT), 99% of lead-acid batteries (the ones running in fossil fuel powered cars) are recycled in the US. This is not the case for the lithium-ion batteries that have a very specific mix of chemical components and little quantities of lithium, which doesn’t make them an appealing market opportunity. For instance, in the EU market, in 2011, only 5% of lithium was being collected and the rest was either incinerated or dumped in landfills (this specifically doesn’t make electric cars greener at all), as it was Not justified by price or regulations to recover it by hydrometallurgical processes.
That said electric cars are not cheap, require a long time to charge so long trips are out, are in no way green or even pretend to be, and nobody talks about what happens to the range of these things in cold weather but it drops like a rock.
https://news.stanford.edu/2022/02/09...e-efficiently/
If the source of energy to power these cars doesn’t come from solar panels, wind turbines or even nuclear or hydroelectric, their CO2 emissions will be much higher. For instance, if the electricity used to charge cars comes from the burning of fossil fuels, it doesn’t matter if the EC are not polluting while being driven, as this pollution was already released in some distant power plant. This means that if you’re driving an electric car in the US, where fossil fuels are 62,7% of the country’s energy production in 2017, you’ll probably release more CO2 into the atmosphere than if you’re driving it in Iceland, that runs almost completely on hydro, geothermal and solar energy. Because electric cars store their energy in large batteries (the larger they are, the bigger their range is) that have high environmental costs. This happens because these batteries are constructed of rare earth elements (REE) like lithium, nickel, cobalt or graphite that only exist beneath the surface of the Earth and therefore depend on mining activities with very polluting processes.
For instance, to produce 1 ton of REE, 75 tons of acid waste (that isn’t always handled in the right way) and 1 tone of radioactive residues are also made, according to the Chinese Society of Rare Earths. Apart from the weight of the REE, the energy used to produce the batteries themselves is also responsible for nearly half of their environmental impact since most of this energy doesn’t come from low carbon sources. in the conventional car industry, according to a study from the international council of clean transportation (ICCT), 99% of lead-acid batteries (the ones running in fossil fuel powered cars) are recycled in the US. This is not the case for the lithium-ion batteries that have a very specific mix of chemical components and little quantities of lithium, which doesn’t make them an appealing market opportunity. For instance, in the EU market, in 2011, only 5% of lithium was being collected and the rest was either incinerated or dumped in landfills (this specifically doesn’t make electric cars greener at all), as it was Not justified by price or regulations to recover it by hydrometallurgical processes.
That said electric cars are not cheap, require a long time to charge so long trips are out, are in no way green or even pretend to be, and nobody talks about what happens to the range of these things in cold weather but it drops like a rock.
But you posted that Stanford article on inorganic nanoparticles and that isht is right up my alley so I'm biting on this one. I'm impressed you pulled this up, or if you are repasting from somewhere else that they pulled this up. I'll give you a relevant tl;dr on their article for your argument here. The conversion efficiencies are so bad that it will never complete against an EV-based transportation model. They didn't give enough details for me to calculate in the article but I'll ballpark the conversion efficiency to be about 3-12%. Just to make the fuel vs what energy you can get back. The round trip efficiency for an EV from electrons being moved to high potential energy to those electrons giving away their energy to push you down the highway is about 50%. At worst about 30% if you drive that Hummer EV. Then we need to consider for this (and most) carbon fuel capture system's need for pure hydrogen stream, purified CO2 stream, the need to maintain 480 degrees temp while putting in an approx 10:1 ratio energy to produce the fuel, and their catalyst degraded severely in 3 days. If you benchmarked a methanol carbon capture system with a fuel cell vehicle, the round trip efficiency might theoretically just catch that Hummer EV. That is, in theory meet the worst in-practice EV today. Maybe if you powered the carbon-capture tech with only renewable energy and the EV tech with only fossil fuels I think you'd win. But hooked up to the same energy source the laws of nature are what they are.
The other parts of your case also fall apart if you're actually looking at published figures or calculating energy efficiencies rather than dead reckoning while ignoring the law of conservation of energy. Although it is well written and sounds convincing for sure.
The issue of trading ecological impact with EVs is valid. i.e. is it worse to put tons of CO2 into the air or strip mine / have harmful pollutants that result from mining and battery production. Those are not directly comparable ecological impacts so each person might weigh the impact of one vs the other differently. But just as with petroleum-based transportation there are rapid advances coming in the EV-based transportation systems. We'll see what the future holds.
EvoM Community Team Leader
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,690
Likes: 708
From: West Coast
I've heard/read estimates that 95% of the metals in Lithium batteries can be recovered and re-used from dead cells.
Unless that critical aspect is being factored in, I feel all the arguments about environmental impact compared to fossil fuels are ingenuine.
Unless that critical aspect is being factored in, I feel all the arguments about environmental impact compared to fossil fuels are ingenuine.
Evolved Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 844
Likes: 166
From: canada
Batteries are changing fast, getting lighter, cheaper and drifting from lithium. Giga casting is spreading to all makers as fast as possible. Cheap performance, that can corner, is on it's way.
I love Evo but reality is China/India don't want air pollution problems in their huge or growing markets, ev's have hit that magic adoption/inflection point and ice cars are done no matter what Porsche tries.
Plus, think about how good driving will be when you focus on only the road and no worries of grenading your engine.
Hell, 48v architecture is gonna drop 200lbs from any car in wiring alone. Go nerd out on what's actually coming. Think about your holiday trailer powering itself along while the floor is a giant battery letting you go across the continent and back. Coming soon to a 1st world near you.
I love Evo but reality is China/India don't want air pollution problems in their huge or growing markets, ev's have hit that magic adoption/inflection point and ice cars are done no matter what Porsche tries.
Plus, think about how good driving will be when you focus on only the road and no worries of grenading your engine.
Hell, 48v architecture is gonna drop 200lbs from any car in wiring alone. Go nerd out on what's actually coming. Think about your holiday trailer powering itself along while the floor is a giant battery letting you go across the continent and back. Coming soon to a 1st world near you.
EvoM Community Team Leader
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,690
Likes: 708
From: West Coast
To be fair, CO2 is fully recyclable too. Everything short of nuclear fission waste is recyclable. The question is can it be done efficiently and be economically viable. When people claim "it's recyclable" or "it's not recyclable" they're really referring to the process and economical viability rather than if it's actually physically possible. Ther s lots of belief that EV battery recycling is possible but until it's done at scale it's not proven.
Agreed excess CO2 in the air is causing issues. I want things to work out with battery recycling and all the other issues. I look forward to the advancements and tech. But especially with batteries I've learned to wait until it's a commercial reality and viable in practice before getting excited. People may argue me on this but I think there's way more exciting and rapid advancements in EV+renewables than on the carbon-based economy and an overtake is inevitable.
I think the big reality though is once people get used to living with an EV it's hard to go back. It's like the guy above said about DCT vs manual. The drawbacks are too few and far between in practice. I've owned a M3P since 2019 and I don't really think about it's green credentials at all. I just think it provides a better ownership experience overall. Lack of sound to me is the only real drawback but I'm old enough that I don't really want a fart can exhaust for my DD. My kids are definitely much more drawn to my Evo.
I think the big reality though is once people get used to living with an EV it's hard to go back. It's like the guy above said about DCT vs manual. The drawbacks are too few and far between in practice. I've owned a M3P since 2019 and I don't really think about it's green credentials at all. I just think it provides a better ownership experience overall. Lack of sound to me is the only real drawback but I'm old enough that I don't really want a fart can exhaust for my DD. My kids are definitely much more drawn to my Evo.
EvoM Community Team Leader
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,690
Likes: 708
From: West Coast
Thing about recycling is that profitability is tied directly to the market price of your end product. Right now it's just way cheaper to mine this stuff than to recycle it, but there are players in this space. Based on what I have seen, I think their viability is far greater than most of the carbon capture startups. Carbon capture really can't turn a profit. The whole idea is that you are sequestering your end product back into the ground or something.
Reality is we cannot continue to grow our economy and raise the global standard of living on fossil fuels. It's been proven we have already exceeded what that technology can provide, without changing our environment. Luckily for us the sun rains down energy 24/7 365. All we need to do is come up with clever ways of collecting and storing the energy and we can grow and improve all we want. IMO the right discussions to have are about how to profit and thrive off of this transition.
IMO this whole "It's on us" as individuals is total propaganda B.S. It's not. If you want to drive an ICE car, do it. It's fine. There people out there fueling up their jets and flying to skip traffic, or vacationing on their super yacht. If they don't have to sacrifice, you shouldn't either.
I think people should buy an EV because it makes sense for their situation and will be an improvement over an ICE vehicle for them. If that's not the case, then it hasn't earned their business yet.
Reality is we cannot continue to grow our economy and raise the global standard of living on fossil fuels. It's been proven we have already exceeded what that technology can provide, without changing our environment. Luckily for us the sun rains down energy 24/7 365. All we need to do is come up with clever ways of collecting and storing the energy and we can grow and improve all we want. IMO the right discussions to have are about how to profit and thrive off of this transition.
IMO this whole "It's on us" as individuals is total propaganda B.S. It's not. If you want to drive an ICE car, do it. It's fine. There people out there fueling up their jets and flying to skip traffic, or vacationing on their super yacht. If they don't have to sacrifice, you shouldn't either.
I think people should buy an EV because it makes sense for their situation and will be an improvement over an ICE vehicle for them. If that's not the case, then it hasn't earned their business yet.
Man talk about derailing the thread, who gives a **** about ev cars. Their junk, we don't have the info structure in place and it's going to be a **** show when it does happen get back on topic already.