I had issues last year running my HP+. I had fade and boiled the fluid. I was going to switch to DTC60's but here is what I've done or WILL do before Mid-Ohio:
1. Switch from ATE Super Blue to Motul
2. Putting on oem brake guides
3. Cutting/trimming the backing plates
4. Adding Ti shims from Girodisc.com. Contact info: Martin@Girodisc.com or go to Girodisc.com. Tell him Eli referred you
5. Adding ss brake lines
I am going to run the HP+ for now and probably switch them out after Mid-O. I want to see how well my upgrades do with the same pads. The HP+ should be an ok pad for track days..

What group are you running in? What days are you running?

 

For HPDE 1 stock fluid is probably fine. Past that you need something better like ATE Super Blue, or Motul RBF600. This is how my brake 'progression' has gone over the last 4 years:

'03 stock pads/fluid
'04 Ferodo DS2500 pads/ ATE Super Blue
'05 Ferodo DS2500 pads/ATE Super Blue
'06 Ferodo DS3000pads/Ate Super Blue - lots of pad transfer problems with the 3000's so I switched to PFC-01 pads. Then I boiled the fluid (7 times in 8 sessions), switched to RBF600. Still got an occasional long pedal, so I added Mitsu air guides and Ti shims (from Girodisc). This year the setup is PFC-01's, RBF600, air guides, DBA slotted rotors, and modified backing plates.

As you get faster, you will find the limits of the parts you are using. HP+ are good for HPDE 1/2, but you'll need something better for 3/4. Also, not using the brakes properly is a HUGE part of the equation. The PFC's I run are a track only pad with a very high temp range, but I could kill them in a day if I tried. Brake hard, don't ease into them. Trail braking also creates excess heat.

 

ah, good post greg. I plan on doing a fluid change, when I do SS lines. I actually plan on doing SS line, fluid and pads all at once, but thats not for a bit.

Where do TI shims go? between pads and pistons?

 

Yup. Make sure you get those fiber shims off the stock pads too.

 

Like they say, admitting you have a problem is the first step! Flush your fluid before track events! Unless you have boatloads of power no decent fluid will boil in a HPDE session unless your technique is bad. As to "checking" the brakes, it's OK to give them a quick pump to take up any knock-back.

Some things I noticed about my technique: getting on the brakes hard enough and fast enough, and double braking during a down shift. You do have to roll into the brakes, but you have to do it fast. The goal is to be on the brakes as hard as possible for as short a time as possible. One thing that helps here is to make sure you're really straightened out. If not, and you feel the back end get loose, you naturally tend to back off. I find the pedal arrangement isn't quite what I'd like for heel-toe so unless I'm careful I wind up backing off the brakes a bit as I blip the throttle and then having to get back on harder. So, I try to delay my down shift as late as possible and work on keeping my toe as the priority and letting my heel and the synchros fend for themselves!

I've been pretty satisfied running Carbotech XP10 in front, DS2500 rear, Wilwood fluid, embarrassingly cheap SP rotors, and no front dust shields. If I had more power and were willing to go through three sets of tires in a season I might need more from my brakes.

See ya at Mid-Ohio
Dave

 

Thanks for all the great replies. And thanks for your braking progression Greg. It's nice to know that someone actually experiments instead of going straight to the $70 Castrol fluid and super expensive pads. I posted the same question in the Motorsports forum and got some different answers. Every reply in there was Motul only. I have the ATE so it is going in. I'm not entirely convinced that a thin Ti shim is going to do anything. I am an engineer (nerd), so I'll do a calculation and report back with the difference in the rate of heat transfer between Ti and steel.

There were a couple people that replied with pics of the AMS brake ducting kits that actually look badass. The price is kind of up there at $350, but I'm sure it can make a tremendous difference. It doesn't look to me like the factory kits do much of anything so I'm going to save my money and grab that AMS kit if I still need additional cooling.

My big changes for this event will be fresh ATE blue, new stainless lines (I just happen to have them laying around), but most importantly I will adjust my braking style. I am much more comfortable on Mid Ohio because I have done 2 schools there. At the time I did the schools I did not know how to heel-toe but now I do it anytime I am driving the car hard. Try some pedal covers if you are having difficulty with the pedal positioning in the Evos, my car had them when I bought it and this car has always been easy for me. The only turns that scare me are 1 (badly) and the entrance to the carousel on the blind off camber left turn.

I'm only going up for Friday but I'll look for you guys. I'm in HPDE1 also and maybe I can move out of it sometime this year if I actually get all 4 sessions in without boiling the fluid. I'll be trailering the car up there though so I'll have tools and extra fluid this time.



Oh yeah there's a little motivation for those of us running in HPDE1. Dave Buschur is going up for the weekend and wants to start road racing. He signed up for HPDE1 but he is too scared to drive his Evo. He said he will be trailering a 07 Eclipse up there and driving it in HPDE1. We can all brag that we roasted Dave Buschur on the road course.

 

Glad to help! The Ti shims insulate much better than steel and help keep heat out of the calipers. I'm no engineer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night... The biggest reason that I don't have a duct kit like the one from AMS (other than the cost) is that they are a COMPLETE pita to work around when installed. I'm under the car way too often to deal with the hoses and getting them mounted correctly.

I heel/toe always. I also left foot brake whenever possible, that way when I get to the track I'm ready to go. Practice makes perfect. Too bad you aren't staying up there on saturday, I would gladly take you out for a session in TT, just so you have a frame of reference.

Oh, and turn 1 is the most fun when you go through it sideways.

 

Anybody taking any in car video at Mid-Ohio ? friday the 20th is my sons birthday party and 21st i have a wedding to go to .

 

I ran out of $$ before I could order a camera mount for my rollbar. Maybe later in the season...

 

One thing people never seem to take into consideration is the difference between a new pad and one that's half worn. I have to think that makes more difference in heat transfer than a shim.

T1 is your friend! It's scary at first because you're heading towards the bridge and you don't have good visibility. But there is so much track to use. I *know* that, yet I still enter too slow and find myself hard on the gas earlier than I should be because I'm behind the corner. For T13 just square up with the slight rise and you get into a nice rhythm of stabbing the brakes and turning in at about mid track. Also, tell your instructor you want to work on braking.

Dave

 

I agree 1000% about the thickness of the pad. A thin piece of anything is going to do little to nothing, especially a thin piece of Ti, but a relatively thich piece of non-metallic stuff (getting really technical here lol) is going to do a much better job of slowing down the heat transfer.

And thanks for the advice, I am definitely going to tell my instructor that braking is my #1 priority. The last time I was there I had major prolems with turn 13 that ended up with me in the grass. I was trying to stay as far to the outside as possible, but the rear would get really light under braking. Hopefully I can find a more comfortable line through there.

 

If the carousel were on its own, yeah, you'd try to enter it from the outside. But coming off the very fast left you just can't. And it will always be a slow corner, so no sense trying to be a hero there. Check out Mid-Ohio's video and you'll see how he's tracked out from T12 to the inside of 13 and goes out almost to mid-track to wind in.

Dave

 

There is an access hole in the fence that is trimmed with yellow something, you actually aim for that when setting up for the carousel. You end up very deep into the turn before you turn in, making a very late apex. That will set you up perfectly for the flick to the left leading onto the front straight. It is disconcerting the first few times through there since the line doesn't make sense to your eyes, but once you get it right, it's very fast.

 

I just watched the video of mid-Ohio....I must be out of my mind to have this be my first HPDE event...haha! Granted the camera angle "could" have been bad but there are a ton of blind turns there.

I'm have to watch that a couple hundred more times and I'm sure i'll be ready to go...

 

Ton of blind turns - check. Told you so.