SST observations and proper manual shift technique?
SST observations and proper manual shift technique?
Hi,
Saw I pretty much scanned through all threads here and on evoxforums looking for this info....
Just bought the '10 MR, but I always wondered about a few things:
1. There is some lag between when I pull the paddle to shift and when the car actually shifts. It seems to me that upshifts are faster--in SS mode, shifts seem to lag 1/4-1/2s. And downshifts seem to be ~1/4-3/4s. I find it strange that sometimes the shifts activate faster, and sometimes slower. In normal mode, downshifts sometimes take up to ~1s before I see the RPMs start to rise.
2. SST auto shifts at 7k rpm, however the limiter does not cut in until 7.5k. I understand that the powerband drops at the high end, so it doesn't make sense to hold shifts all the way. However, what is the true redline then? Is it 7k or 7.5k?
3. Adding to #1, since there is some lag between pulling the paddle and for the shift to start, I find that RPMs can overshoot ~500rpm. So, if the car lets you continue to rev event after being told to shift, what is the proper manual shift technique? Are we to anticipate that it would take ~3-500rpm at WOT until the car shifts, and thus we pull the paddle at ~6500rpm anticipating SST will actually shift at 7k? I read some posts where people actually lift upon pushing the paddle--this seems counter-productive though.
4. I've read many articles and posts about SST saying the transmission shifts effectively immediately with "no perceivable lag." I wish the authors would clarify as this is not my experience at all. As stated above, even in SS mode, there is definitely some lag. Why would anyone state that there is no lag? Yes, in auto mode, the computer somehow manages to shift right at redline, precisely, and almost instantaneously, but you cannot pull that off in manual mode. Why the disparity?
5. Adding to #4, I read that the SST shifts in ~0.2s. Well, I am not sure what they mean by this. Do they mean the delta between when the shift is started by the transmission and when the RPMs stop moving? Cause they cannot possibly mean the delta between the user pulling the paddle and when the RPMs stop right?
So what do you guys think? Has this been your experience as well? So confused...
Saw I pretty much scanned through all threads here and on evoxforums looking for this info....
Just bought the '10 MR, but I always wondered about a few things:
1. There is some lag between when I pull the paddle to shift and when the car actually shifts. It seems to me that upshifts are faster--in SS mode, shifts seem to lag 1/4-1/2s. And downshifts seem to be ~1/4-3/4s. I find it strange that sometimes the shifts activate faster, and sometimes slower. In normal mode, downshifts sometimes take up to ~1s before I see the RPMs start to rise.
2. SST auto shifts at 7k rpm, however the limiter does not cut in until 7.5k. I understand that the powerband drops at the high end, so it doesn't make sense to hold shifts all the way. However, what is the true redline then? Is it 7k or 7.5k?
3. Adding to #1, since there is some lag between pulling the paddle and for the shift to start, I find that RPMs can overshoot ~500rpm. So, if the car lets you continue to rev event after being told to shift, what is the proper manual shift technique? Are we to anticipate that it would take ~3-500rpm at WOT until the car shifts, and thus we pull the paddle at ~6500rpm anticipating SST will actually shift at 7k? I read some posts where people actually lift upon pushing the paddle--this seems counter-productive though.
4. I've read many articles and posts about SST saying the transmission shifts effectively immediately with "no perceivable lag." I wish the authors would clarify as this is not my experience at all. As stated above, even in SS mode, there is definitely some lag. Why would anyone state that there is no lag? Yes, in auto mode, the computer somehow manages to shift right at redline, precisely, and almost instantaneously, but you cannot pull that off in manual mode. Why the disparity?
5. Adding to #4, I read that the SST shifts in ~0.2s. Well, I am not sure what they mean by this. Do they mean the delta between when the shift is started by the transmission and when the RPMs stop moving? Cause they cannot possibly mean the delta between the user pulling the paddle and when the RPMs stop right?
So what do you guys think? Has this been your experience as well? So confused...
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The only time I ever notice shift lag is in first gear, full throttle, mid range RPMs. Sometimes the car will get 2 grand between paddle pull, and shift finish. However, I've gotten used to shifting at about 5 grand, and by that point the turbo is spooled, to the 2nd gear pull is HARD. I also always shift out of other gears around the 6-6500 rpm range. Because power drops at the 6k mark, why keep it up there?
As for the red line vs rev limiter, red line is 7k, rev limiter is 7.5k. Car, in auto, will shift before 7k, but I've seen it jump to the rev limiter before.
If your downshifting is lagging, that's something I've never experienced. My car immediately starts the downshift when I tell it to. There is never a delay, no matter what mode I'm in.
Also, if you read the manual, it nowhere states that there is a difference in shifting (in manual mode) between normal, sport, and s-sport. Other people say they feel a difference, but I don't believe it. I see zero difference between the 3 modes, in manual mode. One does not shift faster than the other. The only time those modes make a difference, is in auto mode.
All in all though, you need to take the time to learn how your car works, and what shifting technique works best for you.
As for the red line vs rev limiter, red line is 7k, rev limiter is 7.5k. Car, in auto, will shift before 7k, but I've seen it jump to the rev limiter before.
If your downshifting is lagging, that's something I've never experienced. My car immediately starts the downshift when I tell it to. There is never a delay, no matter what mode I'm in.
Also, if you read the manual, it nowhere states that there is a difference in shifting (in manual mode) between normal, sport, and s-sport. Other people say they feel a difference, but I don't believe it. I see zero difference between the 3 modes, in manual mode. One does not shift faster than the other. The only time those modes make a difference, is in auto mode.
All in all though, you need to take the time to learn how your car works, and what shifting technique works best for you.
As for the red line vs rev limiter, red line is 7k, rev limiter is 7.5k. Car, in auto, will shift before 7k, but I've seen it jump to the rev limiter before.
If your downshifting is lagging, that's something I've never experienced. My car immediately starts the downshift when I tell it to. There is never a delay, no matter what mode I'm in.
Also, if you read the manual, it nowhere states that there is a difference in shifting (in manual mode) between normal, sport, and s-sport. Other people say they feel a difference, but I don't believe it. I see zero difference between the 3 modes, in manual mode. One does not shift faster than the other. The only time those modes make a difference, is in auto mode.
If your downshifting is lagging, that's something I've never experienced. My car immediately starts the downshift when I tell it to. There is never a delay, no matter what mode I'm in.
Also, if you read the manual, it nowhere states that there is a difference in shifting (in manual mode) between normal, sport, and s-sport. Other people say they feel a difference, but I don't believe it. I see zero difference between the 3 modes, in manual mode. One does not shift faster than the other. The only time those modes make a difference, is in auto mode.
1. as for the redline / rev limiter, my understanding is that redline represents a threshold where the engine might be damaged. so why would they set the rev limiter higher than redline?
2. as for the downshift "lag" you said "immediately STARTS the downshift." what do you mean by "start?" what i experience is that i pull the paddle, and there is some time before i see the RPM gauge move. are you saying you pull the paddle and the instant you click, you see the RPM move?
3. in my experience, in "normal" mode, there is more of this "lag" i man talking about, or you can say "balking" at shifts. then when the rpm starts to move, it moves slower. in SST mode, there is less "lag" and the RPM instantly drop/rises. it's as if i just dropped the clutch in a standard car, where as "normal" is like when you slip the clutch to be super smooth, like when driving passengers in a manual car. anyway, that's my experience.
or......... do i have a defective transmission???
1) Normal mode will shift 'gently' on the gears, meaning there will be a delay in more aggressive driving, and a delay in manual normal as it will change when it's ready. I've found that putting the car in Sport mode, then Manual shifting there has almost 0 delay except 1st gear, and even then it will overshoot only 100rpm or so. I do not use S-Sport mode at all on the streets since Sport does everything I need.
2) As Webman said, redline is 7K, limiter engages at ~7500. It will shift at redline, not rev limiter. You can run it higher than this and the engine may be fine, but you shouldn't DD shifting at 7500 in every gear, this is unnecessary wear on your engine. Imagine riding a bike in 1st gear as fast as you can constantly, then shifting to 2nd until you were peddling as fast as you could, then going to 3rd.. You'd be insane to do that, way too much energy exerted and defeats the purpose of the gears themselves. Hitting 7500 once in a while won't necessarily hurt it, but you don't want to sit there at 7500 waving at the mustang next to you at the 1/4 mile..
3) See my #1 post, but when I am in Sport-Manual, I almost never overshoot except first gear on a launch, and that's generally because my tach is a blur and I have to go by sound 90% of the time, I would NOT lift as you may confuse the trans, especially in auto mode.
4) Again, reply #1
5) I will rarely see RPM stops, generally as soon as I pull for a shift, the RPMs drop that instant as though they already knew.. Downshifts will potentially take longer in any gear except for 6th as it will pre-ready your next highest gear. In this case, when in 4th gear, 5th on the odd gear will be the next gear ready to engage. If you decide you want to downshift to 3rd, it will disengage 5th, and engage 3rd.. this is where you get shift delays.
2) As Webman said, redline is 7K, limiter engages at ~7500. It will shift at redline, not rev limiter. You can run it higher than this and the engine may be fine, but you shouldn't DD shifting at 7500 in every gear, this is unnecessary wear on your engine. Imagine riding a bike in 1st gear as fast as you can constantly, then shifting to 2nd until you were peddling as fast as you could, then going to 3rd.. You'd be insane to do that, way too much energy exerted and defeats the purpose of the gears themselves. Hitting 7500 once in a while won't necessarily hurt it, but you don't want to sit there at 7500 waving at the mustang next to you at the 1/4 mile..
3) See my #1 post, but when I am in Sport-Manual, I almost never overshoot except first gear on a launch, and that's generally because my tach is a blur and I have to go by sound 90% of the time, I would NOT lift as you may confuse the trans, especially in auto mode.
4) Again, reply #1
5) I will rarely see RPM stops, generally as soon as I pull for a shift, the RPMs drop that instant as though they already knew.. Downshifts will potentially take longer in any gear except for 6th as it will pre-ready your next highest gear. In this case, when in 4th gear, 5th on the odd gear will be the next gear ready to engage. If you decide you want to downshift to 3rd, it will disengage 5th, and engage 3rd.. this is where you get shift delays.
Last edited by saytheb; Jan 21, 2010 at 09:43 AM.
Hmm, I dunno then. My car definitely lags in even SST mode. I pull to shift, and there is always at least a short instant before something happens. Upshifts generally are faster then downshifts. And by "faster" I mean I see something happen sooner. The time between the needle starting to move and when it stops is almost instant, so that's not what I mean by shift speed. I just mean the time between clicking the paddle and seeing something move.
I wish I could drive someone else's MR to confirm my car ain't broke. The dealership is so far from me...
When I test drove a different MR at the dealership, i swear it did the same thing...
I wish I could drive someone else's MR to confirm my car ain't broke. The dealership is so far from me...
When I test drove a different MR at the dealership, i swear it did the same thing...
Last edited by St1g; Jan 21, 2010 at 10:10 AM.
Your questions are addressing two different issues. One is how long the gearbox takes to actually make the shift. This, naturally, depends on the mode selected (Normal, Sport, and S-Sport) with S-Sport being the quickest and most aggressive shift and Normal giving the longest, softest shifts.
The other issue is the occasional delay between when the driver gives the command [to the computer] to shift and the intermittent delay between when the command is received and when it's actually executed. You may notice that the shift doesn't happen for a half or so second after the command while the actual shift duration is the same (again, depending on mode).
Yes, we have all noticed the intermittent delay in execution of the shift and I haven not determined the exact trigger to initiate, nor disable, that condition. It comes and goes. However the shift is still the same speed once it is actually executed.
Continue driving your car. You will find times when it executes the shift command immediately (at least that's how it works on my 2008 MR - note that the 2010 has different engine and TCU programming according to rumor).
Redline is defined as the place on your instrument, the tach specifically, where the red zone begins. The programmed RPM cutoff is where the engine starts to stutter because fuel is intermittently being cutoff - where the electronics intentionally limit MAX RPM. For most street cars the actual max power is less than the redline value - YMMV.
When I first got my MR I observed that WOT in second gear when I gave the manual upshift command at 4K RPM, the shift wasn't completed until the engine had reached 5000. That was in Normal mode. In S-Sport mode it rarely climbs more than a hundred or so RPM now.
The other issue is the occasional delay between when the driver gives the command [to the computer] to shift and the intermittent delay between when the command is received and when it's actually executed. You may notice that the shift doesn't happen for a half or so second after the command while the actual shift duration is the same (again, depending on mode).
Yes, we have all noticed the intermittent delay in execution of the shift and I haven not determined the exact trigger to initiate, nor disable, that condition. It comes and goes. However the shift is still the same speed once it is actually executed.
Continue driving your car. You will find times when it executes the shift command immediately (at least that's how it works on my 2008 MR - note that the 2010 has different engine and TCU programming according to rumor).
Redline is defined as the place on your instrument, the tach specifically, where the red zone begins. The programmed RPM cutoff is where the engine starts to stutter because fuel is intermittently being cutoff - where the electronics intentionally limit MAX RPM. For most street cars the actual max power is less than the redline value - YMMV.
When I first got my MR I observed that WOT in second gear when I gave the manual upshift command at 4K RPM, the shift wasn't completed until the engine had reached 5000. That was in Normal mode. In S-Sport mode it rarely climbs more than a hundred or so RPM now.
Okay, so I'm really worried now.... so I called the dealership. Just got off the phone with Rigo? from Southcoast Mitsubishi. According to him, my observations are spot on, and in his own words, "People have different reaction times. 1/2s is pretty darn fast to most people, but no, not 0.1s shifts, not that fast." That's kinda word for word what he said on the phone.
He confirmed:
1. Normal mode could take up to 1s to downshift.
2. Even SS mode is not instant. When pulling to upshift, the RPM will continue to climb even after the paddle is clicked until the transmission actually does shift.
3. There is "lag." The lag is less in SS mode, but there will always be a lag.
I think my observations somewhat match the specs for this transmission, at least on upshifts. It was quoted in a magazine that SST can shift in 0.2s. And this is kinda what I observed--upshifts in SS mode do take ~1/4s usually, though sometimes slower. I guess that 0.2s figure is optimistic, as most shifts are not that fast, even in SS mode.
He confirmed:
1. Normal mode could take up to 1s to downshift.
2. Even SS mode is not instant. When pulling to upshift, the RPM will continue to climb even after the paddle is clicked until the transmission actually does shift.
3. There is "lag." The lag is less in SS mode, but there will always be a lag.
I think my observations somewhat match the specs for this transmission, at least on upshifts. It was quoted in a magazine that SST can shift in 0.2s. And this is kinda what I observed--upshifts in SS mode do take ~1/4s usually, though sometimes slower. I guess that 0.2s figure is optimistic, as most shifts are not that fast, even in SS mode.
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Your questions are addressing two different issues. One is how long the gearbox takes to actually make the shift. This, naturally, depends on the mode selected (Normal, Sport, and S-Sport) with S-Sport being the quickest and most aggressive shift and Normal giving the longest, softest shifts.
The other issue is the occasional delay between when the driver gives the command [to the computer] to shift and the intermittent delay between when the command is received and when it's actually executed. You may notice that the shift doesn't happen for a half or so second after the command while the actual shift duration is the same (again, depending on mode).
Yes, we have all noticed the intermittent delay in execution of the shift and I haven not determined the exact trigger to initiate, nor disable, that condition. It comes and goes. However the shift is still the same speed once it is actually executed.
The other issue is the occasional delay between when the driver gives the command [to the computer] to shift and the intermittent delay between when the command is received and when it's actually executed. You may notice that the shift doesn't happen for a half or so second after the command while the actual shift duration is the same (again, depending on mode).
Yes, we have all noticed the intermittent delay in execution of the shift and I haven not determined the exact trigger to initiate, nor disable, that condition. It comes and goes. However the shift is still the same speed once it is actually executed.
thanks man. i thought i was going nuts.
Last edited by St1g; Jan 21, 2010 at 10:25 AM.
No offense.. but did you read my full reply?
The reason you experience this lag is your transmission is ALWAYS engaged in the next gear. You have two gearshafts, a even, and an odd. (1,3,5 & 2,4,6). These work in tandum, and switch off which gear shaft is "engaged". When you are in 1st, 2nd is already set, it just switched the output shaft to the even shaft.. this is where you come across your delay. Your shift has already been done technically.. Same for 2->3, 3rd is already ready as soon as 1st is shifted to 2nd, the odd gearshaft readies gear 3. This is why your upshifts are MUCH faster than your downshifts, especially in normal mode where it wants to be in 6th ASAP for economy and comfort.
Sport and S-Sport defined in the technical workshop manual and info manual describe the shift tendencies of Sport and S-Sport to be similar, except S-Sport will strive towards redline before shifting. The reaction speeds and shift shock are larger, though S-Sports is MUCH more noticeable (you may feel jerks when you shift).
I encourage you to drive around in manual normal mode and watch your tach, shift from 1st to 6th and watch for/feel for the delays, then downshift to 1st if possible.
After that, try it in sport mode manual, you will see your upshifts and downshifts are much more rapid when compared to Normal mode.
I have not felt/seen a major difference that would justify using S-Sport Manual mode over sport manual for daily driving.
Also, as far as the delay even in SS and S modes, I've noticed it will not let you shift when it seems like it thinks a shift is not practical/safe. I do not know it's logic behind this, but I rarely experience it until I am north of 6k RPM.. 3k RPM seems to be the sweet spot, and shifts are instant for me there.
(As a side note, if you think our shifts are slow, jump in an Audi/VW 08+ DSG.. I hate mine after being in my SST in sport mode. I feel like I have to schedule an appointment for the next gear 2 weeks ahead of time..)
The reason you experience this lag is your transmission is ALWAYS engaged in the next gear. You have two gearshafts, a even, and an odd. (1,3,5 & 2,4,6). These work in tandum, and switch off which gear shaft is "engaged". When you are in 1st, 2nd is already set, it just switched the output shaft to the even shaft.. this is where you come across your delay. Your shift has already been done technically.. Same for 2->3, 3rd is already ready as soon as 1st is shifted to 2nd, the odd gearshaft readies gear 3. This is why your upshifts are MUCH faster than your downshifts, especially in normal mode where it wants to be in 6th ASAP for economy and comfort.
Sport and S-Sport defined in the technical workshop manual and info manual describe the shift tendencies of Sport and S-Sport to be similar, except S-Sport will strive towards redline before shifting. The reaction speeds and shift shock are larger, though S-Sports is MUCH more noticeable (you may feel jerks when you shift).
I encourage you to drive around in manual normal mode and watch your tach, shift from 1st to 6th and watch for/feel for the delays, then downshift to 1st if possible.
After that, try it in sport mode manual, you will see your upshifts and downshifts are much more rapid when compared to Normal mode.
I have not felt/seen a major difference that would justify using S-Sport Manual mode over sport manual for daily driving.
Also, as far as the delay even in SS and S modes, I've noticed it will not let you shift when it seems like it thinks a shift is not practical/safe. I do not know it's logic behind this, but I rarely experience it until I am north of 6k RPM.. 3k RPM seems to be the sweet spot, and shifts are instant for me there.
(As a side note, if you think our shifts are slow, jump in an Audi/VW 08+ DSG.. I hate mine after being in my SST in sport mode. I feel like I have to schedule an appointment for the next gear 2 weeks ahead of time..)
No offense.. but did you read my full reply?
The reason you experience this lag is your transmission is ALWAYS engaged in the next gear. You have two gearshafts, a even, and an odd. (1,3,5 & 2,4,6). These work in tandum, and switch off which gear shaft is "engaged". When you are in 1st, 2nd is already set, it just switched the output shaft to the even shaft.. this is where you come across your delay. Your shift has already been done technically.. Same for 2->3, 3rd is already ready as soon as 1st is shifted to 2nd, the odd gearshaft readies gear 3. This is why your upshifts are MUCH faster than your downshifts, especially in normal mode where it wants to be in 6th ASAP for economy and comfort.
The reason you experience this lag is your transmission is ALWAYS engaged in the next gear. You have two gearshafts, a even, and an odd. (1,3,5 & 2,4,6). These work in tandum, and switch off which gear shaft is "engaged". When you are in 1st, 2nd is already set, it just switched the output shaft to the even shaft.. this is where you come across your delay. Your shift has already been done technically.. Same for 2->3, 3rd is already ready as soon as 1st is shifted to 2nd, the odd gearshaft readies gear 3. This is why your upshifts are MUCH faster than your downshifts, especially in normal mode where it wants to be in 6th ASAP for economy and comfort.
yes, i actually did read your whole reply, but i just reread again and you're right--i missed your point on why upshifts are faster than downshifts. so, if i understand correctly, you're saying the computer anticipates an upshift all the way up to 6th. so, if you actually try to downshift in any gear < 6, the car will have to actually move the gears down since it already prepared that you're going up instead. ah, makes sense.
no offense taken. yes, i actually did read your whole reply, but i just reread again and you're right--i missed your point on why upshifts are faster than downshifts. so, if i understand correctly, you're saying the computer anticipates an upshift all the way up to 6th. so, if you actually try to downshift in any gear < 6, the car will have to actually move the gears down since it already prepared that you're going up instead. ah, makes sense.
yes, i actually did read your whole reply, but i just reread again and you're right--i missed your point on why upshifts are faster than downshifts. so, if i understand correctly, you're saying the computer anticipates an upshift all the way up to 6th. so, if you actually try to downshift in any gear < 6, the car will have to actually move the gears down since it already prepared that you're going up instead. ah, makes sense. S-Sport runs 2 gears lower than normal so you are always in the 'sweet gear'.
Sport seems to be much quicker on the downshifts than normal mode, but I think it still is grabbing the higher gear.. I don't know that for sure, though.
Correct. The exception to this is when it's in auto mode in Sport or S-Sport.. it has a MUCH better idea about which gear to prepare..
S-Sport runs 2 gears lower than normal so you are always in the 'sweet gear'.
Sport seems to be much quicker on the downshifts than normal mode, but I think it still is grabbing the higher gear.. I don't know that for sure, though.
S-Sport runs 2 gears lower than normal so you are always in the 'sweet gear'.
Sport seems to be much quicker on the downshifts than normal mode, but I think it still is grabbing the higher gear.. I don't know that for sure, though.
After having driven around for a while and learning the ways of the SST, it does seam S-sport runs 2 gears lower and Sport will run 1 gear lower than the gear it would be running it Normal (before it hits 5th or 6th gear in which it turns into "camry mode"). All this ends with me driving the car 2 ways; Normal auto for economy and Sport manual for fun. SSport mode is saved for special ocations
This is a very interesting thread
Hi,
Saw I pretty much scanned through all threads here and on evoxforums looking for this info....
Just bought the '10 MR, but I always wondered about a few things:
1. There is some lag between when I pull the paddle to shift and when the car actually shifts. It seems to me that upshifts are faster--in SS mode, shifts seem to lag 1/4-1/2s. And downshifts seem to be ~1/4-3/4s. I find it strange that sometimes the shifts activate faster, and sometimes slower. In normal mode, downshifts sometimes take up to ~1s before I see the RPMs start to rise.
Normal Stock response. The engine interface to the gearbox leaves alot to be desired
2. SST auto shifts at 7k rpm, however the limiter does not cut in until 7.5k. I understand that the powerband drops at the high end, so it doesn't make sense to hold shifts all the way. However, what is the true redline then? Is it 7k or 7.5k?
Gearbox shifts at 7000rpms .. rev cut at 7500rpms .. SST doesn't like anything above 7000rpms .. it starts slipping
3. Adding to #1, since there is some lag between pulling the paddle and for the shift to start, I find that RPMs can overshoot ~500rpm. So, if the car lets you continue to rev event after being told to shift, what is the proper manual shift technique? Are we to anticipate that it would take ~3-500rpm at WOT until the car shifts, and thus we pull the paddle at ~6500rpm anticipating SST will actually shift at 7k? I read some posts where people actually lift upon pushing the paddle--this seems counter-productive though.
in Manual SSPort .. no anticipation.. Normal mode anticipate 500rpms .. full auto .. no anticipation required
4. I've read many articles and posts about SST saying the transmission shifts effectively immediately with "no perceivable lag." I wish the authors would clarify as this is not my experience at all. As stated above, even in SS mode, there is definitely some lag. Why would anyone state that there is no lag? Yes, in auto mode, the computer somehow manages to shift right at redline, precisely, and almost instantaneously, but you cannot pull that off in manual mode. Why the disparity?
Saytheb answered it aptly about 2 gears and clutches.. so the way you drive affects how it up or downshifts .. if you're always accelerating and braking immediately .. the gearbox gets confused easily .. remember the logic is always predicitve .. if you're not smooth or undecided .. the gearbox will do the same too
5. Adding to #4, I read that the SST shifts in ~0.2s. Well, I am not sure what they mean by this. Do they mean the delta between when the shift is started by the transmission and when the RPMs stop moving? Cause they cannot possibly mean the delta between the user pulling the paddle and when the RPMs stop right?
0.01s or less .. specifically .. its capable of 8-10ms shifting but it not utilised probably because of extreme wear .. its the delta between the clutch disengage and th next gear engaged ..
So what do you guys think? Has this been your experience as well? So confused...
Saw I pretty much scanned through all threads here and on evoxforums looking for this info....
Just bought the '10 MR, but I always wondered about a few things:
1. There is some lag between when I pull the paddle to shift and when the car actually shifts. It seems to me that upshifts are faster--in SS mode, shifts seem to lag 1/4-1/2s. And downshifts seem to be ~1/4-3/4s. I find it strange that sometimes the shifts activate faster, and sometimes slower. In normal mode, downshifts sometimes take up to ~1s before I see the RPMs start to rise.
Normal Stock response. The engine interface to the gearbox leaves alot to be desired
2. SST auto shifts at 7k rpm, however the limiter does not cut in until 7.5k. I understand that the powerband drops at the high end, so it doesn't make sense to hold shifts all the way. However, what is the true redline then? Is it 7k or 7.5k?
Gearbox shifts at 7000rpms .. rev cut at 7500rpms .. SST doesn't like anything above 7000rpms .. it starts slipping
3. Adding to #1, since there is some lag between pulling the paddle and for the shift to start, I find that RPMs can overshoot ~500rpm. So, if the car lets you continue to rev event after being told to shift, what is the proper manual shift technique? Are we to anticipate that it would take ~3-500rpm at WOT until the car shifts, and thus we pull the paddle at ~6500rpm anticipating SST will actually shift at 7k? I read some posts where people actually lift upon pushing the paddle--this seems counter-productive though.
in Manual SSPort .. no anticipation.. Normal mode anticipate 500rpms .. full auto .. no anticipation required
4. I've read many articles and posts about SST saying the transmission shifts effectively immediately with "no perceivable lag." I wish the authors would clarify as this is not my experience at all. As stated above, even in SS mode, there is definitely some lag. Why would anyone state that there is no lag? Yes, in auto mode, the computer somehow manages to shift right at redline, precisely, and almost instantaneously, but you cannot pull that off in manual mode. Why the disparity?
Saytheb answered it aptly about 2 gears and clutches.. so the way you drive affects how it up or downshifts .. if you're always accelerating and braking immediately .. the gearbox gets confused easily .. remember the logic is always predicitve .. if you're not smooth or undecided .. the gearbox will do the same too
5. Adding to #4, I read that the SST shifts in ~0.2s. Well, I am not sure what they mean by this. Do they mean the delta between when the shift is started by the transmission and when the RPMs stop moving? Cause they cannot possibly mean the delta between the user pulling the paddle and when the RPMs stop right?
0.01s or less .. specifically .. its capable of 8-10ms shifting but it not utilised probably because of extreme wear .. its the delta between the clutch disengage and th next gear engaged ..
So what do you guys think? Has this been your experience as well? So confused...
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Denver, CO
hi man, appreciate the comments!
1. as for the redline / rev limiter, my understanding is that redline represents a threshold where the engine might be damaged. so why would they set the rev limiter higher than redline?
2. as for the downshift "lag" you said "immediately STARTS the downshift." what do you mean by "start?" what i experience is that i pull the paddle, and there is some time before i see the RPM gauge move. are you saying you pull the paddle and the instant you click, you see the RPM move?
3. in my experience, in "normal" mode, there is more of this "lag" i man talking about, or you can say "balking" at shifts. then when the rpm starts to move, it moves slower. in SST mode, there is less "lag" and the RPM instantly drop/rises. it's as if i just dropped the clutch in a standard car, where as "normal" is like when you slip the clutch to be super smooth, like when driving passengers in a manual car. anyway, that's my experience.
or......... do i have a defective transmission???
1. as for the redline / rev limiter, my understanding is that redline represents a threshold where the engine might be damaged. so why would they set the rev limiter higher than redline?
2. as for the downshift "lag" you said "immediately STARTS the downshift." what do you mean by "start?" what i experience is that i pull the paddle, and there is some time before i see the RPM gauge move. are you saying you pull the paddle and the instant you click, you see the RPM move?
3. in my experience, in "normal" mode, there is more of this "lag" i man talking about, or you can say "balking" at shifts. then when the rpm starts to move, it moves slower. in SST mode, there is less "lag" and the RPM instantly drop/rises. it's as if i just dropped the clutch in a standard car, where as "normal" is like when you slip the clutch to be super smooth, like when driving passengers in a manual car. anyway, that's my experience.
or......... do i have a defective transmission???
2. In my experience, as soon as I tell it to shift, the downshift starts. No lag time, except maybe a tenth of a second. And it doesn't matter what mode I'm in. Any downshift I make takes the same amount of time whether or not I'm in normal, sport or SSport. Same with up shifts. normal mode makes smooth shifts when in auto mode, but when in manual mode, everything is quick shift. There's never a time when the tranny takes it easy to complete the shift, unless you pull off the throttle at shift. Then it waits for RPMs to equalize before releasing the clutch.