Originally Posted by Richard EVO

There's no mystery to trail braking. You just continue with a little bit of brake into the entrance of the turn, and there is an inverse relationship between steering and braking input. The more you steer, the less you brake. It can make for smoother entries into turns than scrubbing all the speed off in a straight line and then shifting, turning and hittin the throttle all at the same time, which can unsettle the car. However, the current wisdom (from John Mueller, btw) is that in an EVO, trail braking just slows down your laptimes.

Originally Posted by machron1

I think everyone posting about ABS has it confused with EBD. ABS = unpredictable vibrating application of the brakes, EBD = effortless trail braking because of brake force proportioning. I think you guys need to clarify exactly what you are doing, because somehow I doubt you actually are talking about using ABS trail braking into a turn as your brake pedal is vibrating and your suspension is unsettling itself in a herky-jerky attempt to regain traction.

Originally Posted by HMSevo8

Threshhold braking is the way to go. Some car clubs, like BMWCCA and whatnot, offer ADSS (Advance Driving Safety Schools or something like that), which have wet skid pads, and a TON of braking exercises. ABS shouldn't be necessary with good threshhold braking. Practice, practice, practice....Plus, get some good pads. I'ev tried a ton, but I love the Performance Friction 97 compound on the fronts, and some less than spectacular pads in the rear, like EBC Red's or something. This friction will let you brake so much later, without ABS. My .02

Originally Posted by 992gnt

I get into the abs pretty regularly, but as soon as I feel it start I back off a bit on the pedal and modulate. To me it's a way of knowing where the traction threshold is without locking up and flat-spotting any tires.

Originally Posted by whiterexman

In all honesty I was (I still am ) having a lot of problem adjusting my braking with my '05 RS. I've been tracking since '97 and all of my previous cars (TypeR, E36 M3, S2K and '03 EVO) all have ABS and the '05 RS was the first and the only one w/out.

The first time I took my '05 RS out to the track I was struggling with braking. Oh my god, it was soooooo ugly. I was locking up my tires left and right when trying to get a good feel on the brakes while practicing threshold braking. I put so many flat spots on my RA1 they were going like "thump-thump-thump-thump" on the front straight....

But my biggest problem during that track weekend with my RS was that I couldn't trail brake with it. I always ended up locking up my inside tire when I trail brake. It was very frustrating and I just can't seem to find the sweet spot with my brakes where I can rotate my car w/out locking up the inside tire.

The way I look at it is that ABS IS and CAN be a big advantage at the track unless you can brake like PROs. There is no question in my mind that an ABS EVO will out brake the RS every time at the track.

As of now I'm still posting slower lap time with my '05 RS compare to my old '03 even though the RS has front LSD and is faster on the straight..

Oh if you were wondering what happened to the trail braking..... Well, I simply just gave it up..... I went back to the basic and try to finished all the braking before turn in right now.

It seems like this is the only way for me to "not to" flat spot my race tires.

Tires are expensive, and I'm a cheap bastard on the budget.

Originally Posted by Richard EVO

It's easy to track in an RS without ABS. Just brake a little earlier. It's also easy to trail brake in the RS, but it in most cases it will just slow you down. Hit the brakes before the turn and then get right back on the gas.

Originally Posted by HMSevo8

..... ABS shouldn't be necessary with good threshhold braking.....

Originally Posted by machron1

....Most people without super aggressive pads will not be able to activate the ABS anyway regardless of how hard they press the pedal......

Originally Posted by CincyEvo

Trail braking is an art and allows a skilled driver to often post better lap times than without trail braking. Avoiding the spin can be challenging but a little countersteering helps. So, ABS enhances the advantage trail braking provides. ABS also facillitates left foot braking as "pedal feel" is irrelevant: you just mash down the brake and ABS takes over (no need to carefully monitor wheel lockup-skidding). All of which shows that having ABS doesn't remove driver skill from the equation of achieving fast laps, it could be just the opposite.

Originally Posted by TriCycle STI C

Are you sure? I don't think so....

Originally Posted by machron1

I was talking about on the track of course. I wasn't talking about STANDING on the brakes, I just meant no matter how hard you press you won't be locking up your ABS because most street and mildly aggressive pads with grippy tires won't have the bite necessary to lock them up after they are up to temperature. I guess it would depend on the track as well, but I brake pretty hard and even with Hawk Blues I have never activated ABS. I have felt EBD helping me along, but never the ABS.

Originally Posted by TriCycle STI C

The majority of drivers on the street and on track don't break hard enough. I don't know if you have heard this before. But that's the common things for many people. In you situation, it sounds like you (and I'm just guessing) are not braking hard enough. But it would be hard for you to gauge since unless you have someone (like a instructor) sit shotgun with you or drive your car with you sitting shotgun, you can't really tell if you are braking enough. You might think you are, but you might very well not. So, if I were you, I would do just that--have someone drive your car with you on track or vice versa, get a 2nd opinion coz after all you are the one who will benefit most when your braking techniques improve.

On another thought, I might've misunderstood you all together if you are talking about brake fade on track with OEM pads. But my understanding is that the OEM pads actually perform very well with very little fade. Perhaps you have different pads and have different experience.

Originally Posted by TriCycle STI C

The majority of drivers on the street and on track don't break hard enough. I don't know if you have heard this before. But that's the common things for many people. In you situation, it sounds like you (and I'm just guessing) are not braking hard enough. But it would be hard for you to gauge since unless you have someone (like a instructor) sit shotgun with you or drive your car with you sitting shotgun, you can't really tell if you are braking enough. You might think you are, but you might very well not. So, if I were you, I would do just that--have someone drive your car with you on track or vice versa, get a 2nd opinion coz after all you are the one who will benefit most when your braking techniques improve.

On another thought, I might've misunderstood you all together if you are talking about brake fade on track with OEM pads. But my understanding is that the OEM pads actually perform very well with very little fade. Perhaps you have different pads and have different experience.