ABS on track
Evolving Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 234
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From: SoCal
Originally Posted by machron1
Even with Hawk Blues I am braking at the threshold of brake fade before the threshold of the tires, and I'm not even running R compounds. I've tried braking later and harder, which results in exciting chicane entries a little sideways scrubbing off speed from the long brake pedal and lack of slowing-down-ness. With Ferodo DS2500s, Hawk HPSs, and stock pads, at Portland International Raceway, I have to start my braking on the front straight at or around the start-finish line, well ahead of the braking signs. With the Hawk Blues I'm able to start braking between the 500 and 400 mark, but if I attempted anything at or beyond the 400 the pedal is very long by the time I get to the turn, and takes about a lap to recover. Impending tire lockup is pretty much out of the question, at least on that track in my car. YMMV of course. Also the new brake air guides I was using seemed to help my brake recovery. I am also normally running a fresh refill of Motul RBF600 or Ate Super Blue.
Your implication I am not braking hard enough in my case isn't founded, I'm braking as hard as I can captain
Your implication I am not braking hard enough in my case isn't founded, I'm braking as hard as I can captain
Originally Posted by machron1
HMSevo8 I think we covered this before. Most people without super aggressive pads will not be able to activate the ABS anyway regardless of how hard they press the pedal. We already figured out people are talking about the electronic brakeforce distribution that is included in the ABS package of the Evo, which puts more braking force to the front and doesn't lock up the unloaded rear wheel during trail braking.
I remember the commentators were talking about this during the last SPEED GT race. Archer plowed into someone (Caddi ?) and took them out... I think they said something about the ABS failing on his car causing that. Not sure though....
Either way, modulation can work pretty well on the track. It is amazing how hard you have to brake to really break a front tire loose on good R tires. I can usually sense the lock up coming and lift the brake and reapply force before it would ever flat spot.
I got no ABS, but isnt it a little more fun that way?
=)
Either way, modulation can work pretty well on the track. It is amazing how hard you have to brake to really break a front tire loose on good R tires. I can usually sense the lock up coming and lift the brake and reapply force before it would ever flat spot.
I got no ABS, but isnt it a little more fun that way?
=)
Originally Posted by TriCycle STI C
Now you sound like you just have a serious episode of brake fade. If I were you, instead of trying pads after pads, i will switch to slotted rotors. Don't get the cross-drilled ones for track. Yes, more expensive compared to the cost of pads, but no brake fade for sure.
When I was done with my last track day, my front calipers were an even darker shade of brown and my rotors were a deep blue color. It's just a heavy car that goes fast, I don't think slotted rotors are the answer.
Last edited by machron1; Jul 21, 2005 at 06:08 PM.
Originally Posted by nils
I remember the commentators were talking about this during the last SPEED GT race. Archer plowed into someone (Caddi ?) and took them out... I think they said something about the ABS failing on his car causing that. Not sure though....
Either way, modulation can work pretty well on the track. It is amazing how hard you have to brake to really break a front tire loose on good R tires. I can usually sense the lock up coming and lift the brake and reapply force before it would ever flat spot.
I got no ABS, but isnt it a little more fun that way?
=)
Either way, modulation can work pretty well on the track. It is amazing how hard you have to brake to really break a front tire loose on good R tires. I can usually sense the lock up coming and lift the brake and reapply force before it would ever flat spot.
I got no ABS, but isnt it a little more fun that way?
=)
Actually what they were talking about was the fact that guys are starting to rely too much on abs, charging intothe corner too deep, and expecting it to save them...that was the nature of Tommy Archer's mistake.
Percy
Originally Posted by machron1
Slotted rotors will just rip through your pads faster with no appreciable increase in fade resistance.
When I was done with my last track day, my front calipers were an even darker shade of brown and my rotors were a deep blue color. It's just a heavy car that goes fast, I don't think slotted rotors are the answer.
When I was done with my last track day, my front calipers were an even darker shade of brown and my rotors were a deep blue color. It's just a heavy car that goes fast, I don't think slotted rotors are the answer.
I'm curious how the cryo treated rotors keeps the pad from fading. I'll have to check them out.
I'm still another advocate with saying, slotted rotors do nothing for you except empty your wallet.
We need to come up with a good brake ducting system. That is going to be key. I'm absolutely cooking my brakes and that's with the stock brake air things. They're just not aggresive enough. We need inlets, silicon tubing and it needs to be pointed right at the brakes.
I'm still another advocate with saying, slotted rotors do nothing for you except empty your wallet.
We need to come up with a good brake ducting system. That is going to be key. I'm absolutely cooking my brakes and that's with the stock brake air things. They're just not aggresive enough. We need inlets, silicon tubing and it needs to be pointed right at the brakes.
I am not exactly sure what the cryo treating process does to prevent pad fade, but I did notice an improvement. I sent an email to the president of the company (super nice guy who hooked me up when I worked at HMS), and hopefully he'll get back to me. Mayhem, slotted rotors do empty your wallet, but help a little in heat dissipation. I am totally in agreement, however, how ****ty our brake cooling is. Ifsomeone here makes a solution, they'll see tons of $$ from us track junkies...
Originally Posted by HMSevo8
I am not exactly sure what the cryo treating process does to prevent pad fade, but I did notice an improvement. I sent an email to the president of the company (super nice guy who hooked me up when I worked at HMS), and hopefully he'll get back to me. Mayhem, slotted rotors do empty your wallet, but help a little in heat dissipation. I am totally in agreement, however, how ****ty our brake cooling is. Ifsomeone here makes a solution, they'll see tons of $$ from us track junkies...
Originally Posted by machron1
I also talked to someone at Frozen Rotors. They mentioned cryo treated rotors lasted longer, but I don't know about fade resistance. Slotted rotors may resist fade because they keep resurfacing the pad during heavy braking, but at the expense of chewing through pads really fast. My race pads cost me more than my rotors, so I would actually rather chew through the rotors
Originally Posted by machron1
I also talked to someone at Frozen Rotors. They mentioned cryo treated rotors lasted longer, but I don't know about fade resistance. Slotted rotors may resist fade because they keep resurfacing the pad during heavy braking, but at the expense of chewing through pads really fast. My race pads cost me more than my rotors, so I would actually rather chew through the rotors
I certainly don't believe the heat dissapation theory on slotted rotors because that's not what slotted rotors were EVER advertised for. They were only advertised for "cleaning pads" which you never need, and "outgasing"
. There's no extra air flow or any signifigant increase in surface area. This obviously isn't the right thread for this discussion, but just a quick summary of how I feel about those things. 
Give me my cheap plain rotors, good pads and so air circulation and I'll race all day.
Pads are expensive and I'm always shocked to see how much they are. Luckily the Hawks have been a lot cheaper solution for me than the Ferodos. Yikes those things are expensive.
Directly from Bill @ Diversified:
Deep cryogenic processing permanently refines the grain structure of metals at the atomic level. Carbon particles precipitate as carbides into a lattice structure and fill in the microscopic voids. This creates metallurgically improved and stabilized rotors that have a denser, smoother surface. As a result, you reduce heat and wear on brake rotors and pads.
They have extensive testing, too. I dunno, from my experience, at least, and I know that experiences vary, I have seen a marked improvement with these rotors, slotted. And I get actually a few days out of my PF pads.
Deep cryogenic processing permanently refines the grain structure of metals at the atomic level. Carbon particles precipitate as carbides into a lattice structure and fill in the microscopic voids. This creates metallurgically improved and stabilized rotors that have a denser, smoother surface. As a result, you reduce heat and wear on brake rotors and pads.
They have extensive testing, too. I dunno, from my experience, at least, and I know that experiences vary, I have seen a marked improvement with these rotors, slotted. And I get actually a few days out of my PF pads.
Originally Posted by HMSevo8
I dunno, from my experience, at least, and I know that experiences vary, I have seen a marked improvement with these rotors, slotted. And I get actually a few days out of my PF pads.
Originally Posted by machron1
I was just checking out your registered ride, you have a TON more mods than I do. I guess you have your brakes sorted out somehow. Do you have cooling ducts or something? Also, do you _really_ track Kumho 712's? That might explain your use of ABS. Those things are like rocks. A stickier tire is probably less prone to ABS activation.