New DOT R-compound choices
Originally Posted by tswift
First I'd take the reveiws in GRM or anyother with a grain of salt for the most part. They may make an ok baseline, but each persons experience is usually different from style to style.
Originally Posted by tswift
The R compound is for you guys who want to go ultimately fast. Hankook makes a full SLICK! They have two sizes that will fit.
Emre
anyone know of a good R compound tire that suits tracks with high ambient temp. 110+ degree and heavy weight vehicle?
My Z is a pig and summer in arizona is no joke if you know what i am talking about....
My Z is a pig and summer in arizona is no joke if you know what i am talking about....
i guess i may have not given the nitto a chance but look at their last "track" tire, the 555r2. Hopefully this one will be better once shaved. As far as the A032rs, i ran them on my M3 a few years ago, and i loved them. They have excellent side walls, and are very placeable and predictable. The only issue i had with em is that they wear much much faster than the Ra1s.
In all these discussions JDM always get the preference!
Let's think outside the {Japanese} box, shall we?
That said, here's a nice writeup on Michelin Pilot Sport Cups.
MPSC's are expensive, but wear longer than RA1's so
for some of us, they're worth it. YMMV
Deetz.
Let's think outside the {Japanese} box, shall we?
That said, here's a nice writeup on Michelin Pilot Sport Cups.
MPSC's are expensive, but wear longer than RA1's so
for some of us, they're worth it. YMMV
Deetz.
Hoosier R3S04 vs. Michelin MPSC A comparison of Hoosiers vs. Michelins in the 993 RS for C class
Background:
245/35 18 front R3S04
285/30 18 rear R3S04
235/40 18 front MPSC
285/30 18 rear MPSC
The car started out optimized for R3S03s. There is no optimum setup for R3S04s, since those tires are unraceable.
I found:
MPSCs are as fast or faster than the Hoosiers (R3S03 or S04) over a single qualifying lap. The reports of the MPSCs being slow are wrong (more on why these reports are common later). Over the course of a 30 lap enduro I estimate I would be 30 seconds ahead at the end with the Michelins. If I choose to run my fastest lap on lap 30, I can do so. I never had a fast lap much past lap 4 on Hoosiers.
MPSCs last roughly 3 times as long as R3S03s. They last about 12 times as long as R3S04s. I consider the tire worn out when enough cord shows that I am afraid to run them.
MPSCs are FAR more consistent over their life. I found less than .5 second difference (1:24 lap) from almost corded to new. I expect that some of the time was my extra effort on new tires. On Hoosiers 3-4 seconds would have been typical.
Useful information about MPSCs:
They need to be hot to work. REALLY hot. The Michelin guy explained to me that he wanted to see 220 degrees in the pit lane. At first I had trouble generating this, since I was so used to babying Hoosiers. I did run them on a 40 degree morning, and the grip was much less. The tires did eventually come up to temp. They are not nearly as bad when cold as Pirelli slicks, however. If you are unwilling or unable to generate 200+ degrees your grip level will likely not be as high.
The tire pressure is critical. I found I needed to run a little higher than the range that Michelin suggested. The grip doesn't seem to change much with pressure, but the feel does, especially on the rear. I am sure this is a preference thing, so other people or cars may be happier at lower pressures.
I wound up running quite a bit more camber than with R3S03s (Again the R3S04 data is useless). I would say that the MPSCs want about the same camber as a Pirelli slick. I thought this was strange considering that the tires were developed for street cars.
The MPSCs have a narrower limit than R3S03s and R3S04. The Hoosiers are easy to drive at large slip angles and the MPSCs are not. The MPSCs are maybe a little tricky at the limit. They feel ok, and give good feedback, but when the limit is reached pretty drastic correction is required. This is fine with an understeering set up. With an oversteering set up like I prefer, you better be ready to do some steering.
The MPSCs changed my car toward understeer. It feels like the rear tires are really 'strong', where the Hoosier rears feel 'weak'. I would like to point out that I don't believe in Hoosier's claim that the 285/30 is not suitable for the rear of a 911. While the tire is undoubtably highly stressed, I detected no difference in feel or life compared to a 305/30 Hoosier. I did tend to run in the higher end of Hoosiers pressure range.
MPSCs have totally changed my approach to club racing. Where before (R3S03s) I had to carefully manage one set of tires to last a race weekend, I can now drive flat out for two entire weekends. This has obviously had a positive impact on my budget. My practice time is much more valuable too, since I can now run 100% without feeling that I am compromising my race by
wearing the tires out.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
Background:
245/35 18 front R3S04
285/30 18 rear R3S04
235/40 18 front MPSC
285/30 18 rear MPSC
The car started out optimized for R3S03s. There is no optimum setup for R3S04s, since those tires are unraceable.
I found:
MPSCs are as fast or faster than the Hoosiers (R3S03 or S04) over a single qualifying lap. The reports of the MPSCs being slow are wrong (more on why these reports are common later). Over the course of a 30 lap enduro I estimate I would be 30 seconds ahead at the end with the Michelins. If I choose to run my fastest lap on lap 30, I can do so. I never had a fast lap much past lap 4 on Hoosiers.
MPSCs last roughly 3 times as long as R3S03s. They last about 12 times as long as R3S04s. I consider the tire worn out when enough cord shows that I am afraid to run them.
MPSCs are FAR more consistent over their life. I found less than .5 second difference (1:24 lap) from almost corded to new. I expect that some of the time was my extra effort on new tires. On Hoosiers 3-4 seconds would have been typical.
Useful information about MPSCs:
They need to be hot to work. REALLY hot. The Michelin guy explained to me that he wanted to see 220 degrees in the pit lane. At first I had trouble generating this, since I was so used to babying Hoosiers. I did run them on a 40 degree morning, and the grip was much less. The tires did eventually come up to temp. They are not nearly as bad when cold as Pirelli slicks, however. If you are unwilling or unable to generate 200+ degrees your grip level will likely not be as high.
The tire pressure is critical. I found I needed to run a little higher than the range that Michelin suggested. The grip doesn't seem to change much with pressure, but the feel does, especially on the rear. I am sure this is a preference thing, so other people or cars may be happier at lower pressures.
I wound up running quite a bit more camber than with R3S03s (Again the R3S04 data is useless). I would say that the MPSCs want about the same camber as a Pirelli slick. I thought this was strange considering that the tires were developed for street cars.
The MPSCs have a narrower limit than R3S03s and R3S04. The Hoosiers are easy to drive at large slip angles and the MPSCs are not. The MPSCs are maybe a little tricky at the limit. They feel ok, and give good feedback, but when the limit is reached pretty drastic correction is required. This is fine with an understeering set up. With an oversteering set up like I prefer, you better be ready to do some steering.
The MPSCs changed my car toward understeer. It feels like the rear tires are really 'strong', where the Hoosier rears feel 'weak'. I would like to point out that I don't believe in Hoosier's claim that the 285/30 is not suitable for the rear of a 911. While the tire is undoubtably highly stressed, I detected no difference in feel or life compared to a 305/30 Hoosier. I did tend to run in the higher end of Hoosiers pressure range.
MPSCs have totally changed my approach to club racing. Where before (R3S03s) I had to carefully manage one set of tires to last a race weekend, I can now drive flat out for two entire weekends. This has obviously had a positive impact on my budget. My practice time is much more valuable too, since I can now run 100% without feeling that I am compromising my race by
wearing the tires out.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
Also into the discussion, we have to interject the issue
of grip vs. life.
For a street tire, grip isn't the ultimate issue, life is.
For a track tire, life is just as long as the event, or
till the next pit stop. Grip is the issue.
TIRE.......................................Grip... ..........Life
1) Hoosier............................... 10.................2
2) Kumho V710 (not Victoracer).....9..................3
3) MPSC...................................8.......... ........8
4) Goodyear GSCS......................8..................3
5) Hankook...............................6........... .......???
6) Kumho Victoracer ...................5...................6
7) Toyo RA-1 (worn)....................5..................10
8) Yoko A032R...........................4................. ...7
9) Toyo RA-1 (Fresh unshaved)......4..................10
10) Good Street Tire (A046) .........1..................20
of grip vs. life.
For a street tire, grip isn't the ultimate issue, life is.
For a track tire, life is just as long as the event, or
till the next pit stop. Grip is the issue.
TIRE.......................................Grip... ..........Life
1) Hoosier............................... 10.................2
2) Kumho V710 (not Victoracer).....9..................3
3) MPSC...................................8.......... ........8
4) Goodyear GSCS......................8..................3
5) Hankook...............................6........... .......???
6) Kumho Victoracer ...................5...................6
7) Toyo RA-1 (worn)....................5..................10
8) Yoko A032R...........................4................. ...7
9) Toyo RA-1 (Fresh unshaved)......4..................10
10) Good Street Tire (A046) .........1..................20
Originally Posted by Deetz
Let's think outside the {Japanese} box, shall we?
That said, here's a nice writeup on Michelin Pilot Sport Cups.
MPSC's are expensive, but wear longer than RA1's so
for some of us, they're worth it. YMMV
Deetz.
That said, here's a nice writeup on Michelin Pilot Sport Cups.
MPSC's are expensive, but wear longer than RA1's so
for some of us, they're worth it. YMMV
Deetz.
To be honest, the only experience we have with the michelin is they are too expensive and have no advantage over the RA1. I can't begin to count the number of Porsche customers I have who were on the PSC2 but switched to the RA1 because in their opinon it was a better tire for way less money. Most Porsche guys think because the Michelin's are stock on the car that that is the best choice. Once they try something else they don't go back. The same can be said of th Gooyear F1 street tire, that thing is terrible on the track.
"he car started out optimized for R3S03s. There is no optimum setup for R3S04s, since those tires are unraceable."
What the hell does "unraceable mean? This must be one old review. Then he says they oulast the R4 by twelve times, how does he come to this conclusion if the tire is "unraceable?"
One guys opionon means nothing when compared to whole. when a guy doesn't even mention heat cycle, then I question he knows how a tire really works. You don't judge a tires life by whethere the chords show or not. A Race tire has a given life and it has nothing to do with how much tread is left of how deep the wear marks are. As I said earlier, when the stop watch tells you that the car is slowing down, then the tires are gone!
What the hell does "unraceable mean? This must be one old review. Then he says they oulast the R4 by twelve times, how does he come to this conclusion if the tire is "unraceable?"
One guys opionon means nothing when compared to whole. when a guy doesn't even mention heat cycle, then I question he knows how a tire really works. You don't judge a tires life by whethere the chords show or not. A Race tire has a given life and it has nothing to do with how much tread is left of how deep the wear marks are. As I said earlier, when the stop watch tells you that the car is slowing down, then the tires are gone!
Originally Posted by Deetz
Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are expensive, but wear longer than RA1's.
In a race setting in the dry, I would take the Cups in a second. But in a real-world, non-competitive HPDE or lapping day setting, the RA-1's are tough to beat.
Emre
Originally Posted by Kayaalp
I've had the exact opposite experience with Pilot Sport Cups. They grip much better than RA-1's but don't last nearly as long. Also, their wet weather performance is pretty abysmal. Plus, they take a couple of laps to really start working, whereas the RA-1's only need a couple of corners to get up to speed.
In a race setting in the dry, I would take the Cups in a second. But in a real-world, non-competitive HPDE or lapping day setting, the RA-1's are tough to beat.
Emre
In a race setting in the dry, I would take the Cups in a second. But in a real-world, non-competitive HPDE or lapping day setting, the RA-1's are tough to beat.
Emre
If you get the camber and toe right, the MPSC's wear like iron. And I stand by my statement about longer than the RA-1's YMMV...
Originally Posted by tswift
I can't begin to count the number of Porsche customers I have who were on the PSC2 but switched to the RA1 because in their opinon it was a better tire for way less money. Most Porsche guys think because the Michelin's are stock on the car that that is the best choice. Once they try something else they don't go back. The same can be said of th Gooyear F1 street tire, that thing is terrible on the track.
PS2's are street tires.
Michelin Pilot Sport 2's -> PS2 -> Street
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup's -> MPSC -> DOT-R
There is no comparison between the two. The PS2's are
very good, maybe better than the A046 or Neova for the
street, but the MPSC's are in another league.
That said, yes the RA-1s are really good, but feel different than Hoosiers or MPSCs. Some of my track buddies just don't like the RA-1s feeling the Michelins are "tighter" when hot. I think the Cups are faster than
the RA-1s. Just seems nobody ever mentions them.
Just another data point.
Deetz.
Like I said, I obviously don't know my Michelins 
All I can go by is the market. The RA1 was first introduced in 1992. It took ten years before it found it's niche, which is, it had to wait for the track day generation to come. The tire has not been changed since then. Next year Toyo will bring the R888 to the U.S., who knows what will happen.
I'm happy you like your cups, but the market says otherwise, one thing I know being in the race tire business, when something works it doesn't take long for others to find out. That said, I don't ever, I mean almost never see a PSC at an SCCA event. Which leads me to believe they just don't cut it! ( you can tell I'm trying to be as nice as possible and not say what I feel to be the real truth. )
As I've said before, eveyone drives differently, most guys never and I mean never find the limit of an EVO. Best advice I can give is to spend our money on Drivers schools and tires. It's always funny to see the little Miata smoking the Porsches and other high horsepower cars.
later -
All I can go by is the market. The RA1 was first introduced in 1992. It took ten years before it found it's niche, which is, it had to wait for the track day generation to come. The tire has not been changed since then. Next year Toyo will bring the R888 to the U.S., who knows what will happen. I'm happy you like your cups, but the market says otherwise, one thing I know being in the race tire business, when something works it doesn't take long for others to find out. That said, I don't ever, I mean almost never see a PSC at an SCCA event. Which leads me to believe they just don't cut it! ( you can tell I'm trying to be as nice as possible and not say what I feel to be the real truth.
) As I've said before, eveyone drives differently, most guys never and I mean never find the limit of an EVO. Best advice I can give is to spend our money on Drivers schools and tires. It's always funny to see the little Miata smoking the Porsches and other high horsepower cars.
later -
Bullsh*t!
I see tons more Hoosier and MPSCs than RA1's
Especially in higher run groups and on instructors cars.
I mean, you know if you're Toyo and have to buy your way into a series to SPEC a tire, then ok, that's the tire they gotta run.
But don't confuse that with a tire of *choice*.
RA1's are great - But there are other sometime better choices.
Deetz.
I see tons more Hoosier and MPSCs than RA1's
Especially in higher run groups and on instructors cars.
I mean, you know if you're Toyo and have to buy your way into a series to SPEC a tire, then ok, that's the tire they gotta run.
But don't confuse that with a tire of *choice*.
RA1's are great - But there are other sometime better choices.
Deetz.
Originally Posted by tswift
"he car started out optimized for R3S03s. There is no optimum setup for R3S04s, since those tires are unraceable."
What the hell does "unraceable mean? This must be one old review. Then he says they oulast the R4 by twelve times, how does he come to this conclusion if the tire is "unraceable?"
One guys opionon means nothing when compared to whole. when a guy doesn't even mention heat cycle, then I question he knows how a tire really works. You don't judge a tires life by whethere the chords show or not. A Race tire has a given life and it has nothing to do with how much tread is left of how deep the wear marks are. As I said earlier, when the stop watch tells you that the car is slowing down, then the tires are gone!
What the hell does "unraceable mean? This must be one old review. Then he says they oulast the R4 by twelve times, how does he come to this conclusion if the tire is "unraceable?"
One guys opionon means nothing when compared to whole. when a guy doesn't even mention heat cycle, then I question he knows how a tire really works. You don't judge a tires life by whethere the chords show or not. A Race tire has a given life and it has nothing to do with how much tread is left of how deep the wear marks are. As I said earlier, when the stop watch tells you that the car is slowing down, then the tires are gone!
Google?
http://www.nasaproracing.com/socal/l...rds_class.html
Deetz.
Last edited by Deetz; Nov 20, 2005 at 07:32 AM.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 535
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From: Dallas
Originally Posted by Deetz
Also into the discussion, we have to interject the issue
of grip vs. life.
For a street tire, grip isn't the ultimate issue, life is.
For a track tire, life is just as long as the event, or
till the next pit stop. Grip is the issue.
TIRE.......................................Grip... ..........Life
1) Hoosier............................... 10.................2
2) Kumho V710 (not Victoracer).....9..................3
3) MPSC...................................8.......... ........8
4) Goodyear GSCS......................8..................3
5) Hankook...............................6........... .......???
6) Kumho Victoracer ...................5...................6
7) Toyo RA-1 (worn)....................5..................10
8) Yoko A032R...........................4................. ...7
9) Toyo RA-1 (Fresh unshaved)......4..................10
10) Good Street Tire (A046) .........1..................20
of grip vs. life.
For a street tire, grip isn't the ultimate issue, life is.
For a track tire, life is just as long as the event, or
till the next pit stop. Grip is the issue.
TIRE.......................................Grip... ..........Life
1) Hoosier............................... 10.................2
2) Kumho V710 (not Victoracer).....9..................3
3) MPSC...................................8.......... ........8
4) Goodyear GSCS......................8..................3
5) Hankook...............................6........... .......???
6) Kumho Victoracer ...................5...................6
7) Toyo RA-1 (worn)....................5..................10
8) Yoko A032R...........................4................. ...7
9) Toyo RA-1 (Fresh unshaved)......4..................10
10) Good Street Tire (A046) .........1..................20
The hooiser AND the V710 are in a class of their own. I'd say they are an honest 1 second or more faster on a 60 second autocross course than any other r-compound. What that translates to on a track, I have no idea.
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From: Louisville, KY
Originally Posted by Deetz
Bullsh*t!
I see tons more Hoosier and MPSCs than RA1's
Especially in higher run groups and on instructors cars.
I mean, you know if you're Toyo and have to buy your way into a series to SPEC a tire, then ok, that's the tire they gotta run.
But don't confuse that with a tire of *choice*.
RA1's are great - But there are other sometime better choices.
Deetz.
I see tons more Hoosier and MPSCs than RA1's
Especially in higher run groups and on instructors cars.
I mean, you know if you're Toyo and have to buy your way into a series to SPEC a tire, then ok, that's the tire they gotta run.
But don't confuse that with a tire of *choice*.
RA1's are great - But there are other sometime better choices.
Deetz.