Hmmmm well that has to be the absolute best-case scenario...in fact better than I've ever heard of! I'll ignore the unapologetic way you "rephrased my argument for me" if you tell me the secret to running 8-10 lapping days on a set of R-comps & pads! Hawk Blues lasted me exactly 80 on-track minutes before going down to NEARLY the backing plates, stopped only by the lip created from carving a pad-sized channel in the middle of my rotors. I was going to try Pagid RS29's next but I couldn't get any in time so I settled on Pagid RS-14's. 8-10 lapping days on any R-comp, even the famous RA-1, seems a little far-fetched to me. I was going to try RA-1's on the 24th but they seem to be on backorder from discounttiresdirect and the local Toyo folks, so I'm just going to use the RT-615's I have on it right now...probably will be the last track day I put on them (they have 2 on them right now...and they are 200 treadwear...so you can understand my scepticism about 8-10 on a ~40-100 treadwear Toyo). Not that I don't believe you, it's just that you seem to have found the holy grail of a setup. I've never been to a track day where I wasn't all the way, or nearly all the way, to the backing plates of my front pads. I've tried stocks, DS2500s, HPS (yikes! thought they were HP+, not a fun day), HP+, Blues...one track day seems to be how long brake pads last me...

 

It's interesting that you talk about how you remember each event. The way I remember each day of autocrossing is STANDING AROUND most of the day watching other people drive waiting for my 45 seconds. The way I remember a track day is having a ton of fun DRIVING all day and being completely worn out by the time it was over. An important consideration is how much you value your time. I have very limited free time and would rather do only 1 track day per year than a full season of autocrossing, and when it's all finished I would have spent more time driving in that one track day. I just have a hard time giving up a full day of my time to drive for 6 minutes. On another note, I also noticed that my tire wear was much worse autocrossing than doing track days.

-Paul

 

I'm in the same boat as you, I don't have time to stand around every weekend chasing cones for ~3-6 minutes of time on-track. I also can afford 4-5 track days per year, so that's what I do. I was just commenting that Auto-x people generally don't spend as much money per season as someone who does lapping days. I know I personally go through a crapload of expendables every season that makes the entry fees only about 10%-20% of the actual cost. I also don't get the satisfaction of winning trophies, getting points posted, etc. I don't really care myself, but hey at least the Auto-x people are doing real racing in competition with others. Auto-x really is challenging as well, at least it is for me (challenging but not fun, so not my cup of tea, probably for the simple fact I'm no good at it lol). The main thing that prompted the original off topic post from me was the way the other guy was simply dismissing Auto-x out of hand as a waste of time & money because he does lapping days.

 

machron1,
please re-read my followup post, you will find that I took every opportunity to lend creedence to autox, and i fully agree with the post earlier about an autoxer is a good road racer vs. road racers aren't always a good autoxer. These words came from Dorsey Schroeder (when referring to Randy Pobst) and i hold these drivers in the highest regard.

My bone to pick is with the limited seat time of autoX events. Thats all. I have even mentioned ways to optimise this by going to an autox school. If each autox event was of the school type, then it would make sense bang for buck and accounting for time

As an instructor I generally goto at least one event a month. Here is what Im using this season. Goodyear GSCS (DOT slicks; hoping two used sets will last me all year), Raybestoes ST43, ebay special rotors. I was on the RA1s last year and they are really that good. If you run a monthly schedule, budget for one set of tires, brake pads and two set of rotors. This is assuming you switch at least rotors/pads for the weekend. Anything less and one set of each works perfectly fine.

The reason Im on the GSCS's is becuase NASA (and many other track day organizers) has a Time Trial* class. In fact NASA is the first organization to have a nationally recognized TT program and our region just earned ouselves a dedicated TT session. SCCA had something like this called solo1 but our region doesn't hold these events. So if you want competition (last event our class top 3 was separated by 5tenths) then you will find it at track events as well.

*strong warning, becuase the TT class is "timed" your insurance company will most likely not cover it like they usually do with HPDE events. Yes there are higher risks at TT. Check your exclusions section of your policy if you want to know.

 

Let me try to pull this pack to my original question. First: yes, road courses are great, but at the moment I chose to autocross. When I start doing time trials or club racing I’ll setup my car differently. The current setup would be dangerous at high speeds. That is why I undo it after each event.

On car setup: yes there is still room for more tuning. I do have a rear sway bar and I set it to the hardest setting for events. I need to put 9K springs on the rear and frankly I would like to swap the K-Sports for Ohlins, however, this season I have k-sports. I could also fix the tuning by getting an Elise. But that wouldn’t make me a better driver.

My question is about car control (to be latter applied to autocross). A really good driver should be able to get any car to do anything they want it to do. That is what I’m after. I can get the EVO to plow (anybody can). I can occasionally get the rear end out, but not reliably or comfortably. I’m trying to find a way to do cause the rear end to come around. If I can do that reliably then I should be able to begin controlling the degree to which the rear end comes out.

Better car control coupled with ‘looking ahead’ should result in faster times on track. I’ll try to put all the caveats in this time: What is the easiest low speed, in a parking lot, for practice purposes only, way to spin an 03 EVO out?

 

Agreed. You can use driving technique to compensate for (or even overcome) the handling shortcomings of just about any platform.


There are a few tricks. The classic technique to get an Evo to rotate at corner entry is to trailbrake into the corner. If you're comfortable with left-foot braking (LFB), then this is even easier to accomplish. Get the car rotated quickly and keep the throttle open so the turbo stays on the boil. It kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

Personally, I've never driven a car that wouldn't rotate using this technique. I was even able to teach my girlfriend to slide her Pontiac Sunfire through the corners that way (YES we were on a track...and YES I'm an instructor ). We had thet J-body sliding around like you wouldn't believe, and we never had to resort to the handbrake.

The other thing to look at is your toe and camber settings. Too much negative camber in the rear will keep the back from sliding around. You shouldn't need more than 1 degree of negative at the rear. Also, most people have their Evos set up with toe-in on the rear. Zero toe will help...and a tiny bit of toe-out will REALLY help. Personally, I prefer a car to be a little "loose" on the track. I learned how to drive with RWD BMW's, so I'm used to it (understeer drives me insane). I have my Evo set up with a tiny bit of rear toe-out and it really helps rotate the car dramatically. A tiny bit of trailbraking and the rear starts to drift a bit.

Emre

 

just to set you straight, i've got 6 events on my ra-1's and i've TRASHED them every chance i've gotten. I ran the first 4 events under-pressured (35/38 HOT), so i got some tire rollover and odd wear on the shoulder.

I consistantly pull at or above 1.5 g's in corners/braking.

The tires are just now down to the treadwear indicators, meaning, they're just now low enough to be non-road legal. They start out at 8/32, and i quote "The common shave for a full race set-up is at least 4/32. For Track day events we recommend at least 6/32 shave. "

I'll run them for a few more, no issues, might very well get another set of wheels/tires, as they're not THAT pricey, but 8-10 is a fair estimate.

Brake pads, my Endless CCR's, lasted 6 events, before they were gone. I'm now gonna go with the PF 97 pads, and see how that goes, again, 6 events for most people is AT LEAST a season, but i'm in florida where it's warm, and the events really never stop. We basically go year round.

You're either not using the right pads (at all), or not using the brake pedal effectively enough to toast a set of pads per event. I consistantly boil super blue like it was water for coffee, so theres no claim of me "being easy on it".

You just need the right tools for the job, if you're gonna auto-x, you're gonna wanna run softer compounds and be more prone to over-steer. For longer runs (last weekend, had 245 miles on track.), you want something harder, like ra-1's.

 

Guys this is turning into a huge thread hijack. Since they are free, I created another one if you care to continue this OT convo.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh....php?p=3084658

 

hijacked thread? On EVOM? Really?

Doesnt matter. I got the answers I needed from the usual suspects. Should have just emailed chrisw and Kayaalp (and a few others) directly and let tepid sugar water have the thread.

 

sorry man, it's in many threads like this that you get the best info from people, on certain topics.

That being said, i have a hard time believing, and correct me if i'm wrong, that you're PROPERLY adjusting your suspension before and after an event. That alone could be causing all kinds of issues with toe in/out.

Always try to help, and while road race stuff does overlap auto-x, it's not exactly the same. Auto-x is much more sudden, where road racing has to be completely smooth.

 

not really. Generally speaking going straight to trusted sources that are able to stay on topic usually yeilds better results. There are plenty of excellent drivers here in DFW (many of them national champions) that are able to help me. In some ways posting here is like going to an improve show. some times you strike gold.

I got out of this thread a few good things.

 

wtf? You ask for advice here, and then say "i have other means for answers".

Still, you claim you add neg camber "AT THE EVENT", and "That is why I undo it after each event.".

We've asked how you do that, as you cannot change camber without making toe completely outta whack. You claim it's not a setup issue, but unless you're toting around an alignment machine, or the proper tools for it, it sounds like a glaring error.

 

WFT? Of all the people on this thread not providing anything you sure make a lot of noise.





[update] For got to answer the one useful bit in that post.



Don’t you have people you can go verify things with? Perhaps some gray beards that have been racing sense they got their first Model T back when the Magna Carta was signed?



So somebody on the internet told you that if you change your camber your toe is going to be all out of whack? You didn’t bother to ask what that means? You didn’t bother to look up what they are talking about? Perhaps take a class? Or ask somebody?



There is a direct predictable relationship between camber and toe. Changing one will not put the other “out of whack”. Please be more specific. If you mean that by adding more negative camber on my car I’m increasing my toe in, then you are probably correct. But do you know by how much? We are not talking about tires point in odd directions and cars that crab walk side ways.



I’ll go play mechanic and measure the difference after I finish a few other things.

 

dude, you want help, right? I, and other drivers, have asked you numerous times a simple setup question. Do you not want to answer it or something? It's not that hard man.

 

Sorry tepid, but you really haven't provided much help here at all. generally you hijacked the thread and have managed to completely miss the point of the question.

You mark your camber plates and toe rods after the car has been aligned. Then when it comes time, you jack the car up, loosen the camber plate bolts and mash the tops in to where you want them (some testing required to find the right place), and then tighten things back.

Following good procedure, you should change only one thing at a time and determine its effect. Increasing neg. camber on my car dropped my times by .5 seconds. The next step will be to adjust the toe.