+1. Greg Grenbaum will not hesitate in dropping someone out of HPDE4/TT in the SoCal region if he detects a hint of stupidity or inexperience. It's not that difficult to progress to HPDE 3, especially in a faster car, but they try to watch you closely before you are bumped up to HPDE 4/TT. It also depends on the driver, as on several occasions, I have seen decent drivers state that they aren't ready themselves and will stay at HPDE 3 for another several events or season before attempting that move.

 

I sure hope there are standards and critical review for drivers in an open passing group, as I (a father of two young girls) certainly would not want to be on the track with "stupid inexperienced" drivers. Hopefully I won't resemble this characterization next Spring I learned a great deal last year taking all this more seriously-creating a plan to develop myself as a driver, and my car with competitive time trial capabilities. Then maybe, if my wife gives the OK, some wheel to wheel racing in a vehicle that isn't still partly owned by the bank

Plus, I write way too much-Nils had the best advice a few posts back

 

No offense taken... T2 alone would kill me, I'm too much of an engineer at heart. I use the GVR4 and near unlimted ITE rules to push the envelope

Good Luck on the TT circuit this year.

 

For those that can afford it I'd highly recommend the 3 Day Skip Barber Racing School (or similar). Once you've done some regular track days and have the bug, moving toward wheel to wheel racing it worth the cost (~3500 these days). Marty and I did it a few years back and it was unlike and other training (driving or otherwise) that I've ever had. One of the nice things is that if you successfully complete the 3 days (most everyone does) you can qualify for your SCCA Regional Racing License. Most other racing bodies (NASA, Porsche Club, BMW Club) will accept the SCCA one for proof of basic qualification. Just as a heads-up you must complete 2 regional races per year to keep you license current. Four per year if you wish to race in the National circuit.

 

+1. Nils should know -- and he is becoming one of the fastest EVO drivers on the West Coast.

NASA has a good, well organized (maybe I should say hyper-organized) program. To me, the big downside of NASA is that you don't get much seat time. Usually in HPDE, four 20-minute sessions is your whole day. To me, twice that much seat time is a short day.

I don't wheel-to-wheel race yet, and I have tried time trials/time attacks, but don't like them because I need competition to run my fastest laps. Chasing someone who is 2 seconds faster than me around the track is when I run my best laps.

I don't know anything about the HPDE orgainzers in the mid-west, east coast or south, so I can't help you there. There are gazillions of groups and opportunities to run HPDE at the tracks in Calif. and Nev. year-round, but it's to far for you. One suggestion -- telephone or go to the website of your closest road courses, and ask them for a schedule of their HPDE events. There may be groups that run the tracks in your area, and track management can tell you who they are and when they have dates. Most of these groups have instruction. Good luck, and have fun.

 

Thanks everyone for the input so far!

If you do a couple HPDE's with one club, can you start at the upper levels of another club's HPDE, or are they all independent?

 

I would say it's dependent upon the club itself, but at NASA, you would have to show your documented experience (e.g. logbook), then you'd get put in one class lower than your experience dictates to be evaluated first and then moved up if you drive accordingly. Not saying every single region will handle it that way, but that's what I've seen.

 

Not familiar with a logbook. Will they give you one at your first NASA event or HPDE? Or do you provide your own? Is it just a notebook with your racing history?

 

I can only speak for NASA, but yeah, they give you a logbook at your first event, which is usually HPDE1. I got mine at my first event, then I get it filled out each time.

 

One thing to consider as you decide which group's time trial competition you choose is your level of mods. I am prepping my car to run in NASA TTA and actually have to remove a few minor mods in order to be able to run enough tire to have any chance of being even remotely competitive. The points add up very quickly.
Redline Time attacks are much less restrictive. You could run your car as an awesome "sandbagger" with massive street tires and have a lot more freedom to mod to get absolutely faster. NASA's rules seem to be more interested in relative speed-driving ability being the biggest variable.
I know a group that runs a very relaxed HPDE at Grattan Raceway every Spring/Summer/Fall. If you want in for the Spring (April/May) let me know, and I can get you on the list. I probably won't be there as I'll be at Mid Ohio in April, but I have friends that will be going who could help you out a great deal, given it would be your first time on the open track.

 

Johannes, thanks! I am definitely interested. PM me if you can get me on the list let me know when it is and what the cost will be, or where to sign up.

As far as classing, I won't be removing anything from my car. If that puts me in the Unlimited class or whatever they call it, so be it. I roll on 285/30/18 Advans for my daily driver, so that is probably what I will use at the track. I did see one series where they limit tire size to 275, but I can't remember which series it was. Guess I won't be doing that one!

EVOlutionary

 

Unless you want to waste lots of time and money (plus develop bad habits and take unnecessary risks)...your best bet is to get 1-to-1 instruction. That's the single most important element of all at the novice level. All this "track time, track time, track time" stuff is fine once you actually know what the heck you're doing. Just remember that track time alone will not help you at all until you've reached a certain level of competence.

No offense to anyone here, but the guys who start off with lapping days or try to race through the rungroups to get signed off at all costs are usually the same guys who think they're God's gift to driving...until they stuff their shiny new car into the guardrail one day. Everyone likes to imagine that they're the second coming of Ayrton Senna. But you don't get to that level by just screwing around on the track and trying to copy the lines of the fast guys. Figuring out "the line" is just a tiny part of high-performance driving. You'll learn much quicker with a qualified instructor by your side.


I've run with pretty much all the major organizations in the US and Canada. I instruct with maybe 8 or 10 different national-level clubs. In my experience, the best instruction is given at BMW CCA events. Join your local chapter (you don't need a BMW to drive with them) and sign up for their High-Performance Driving Schools. They've been doing driver training since the 1960's and most clubs have just copied their curriculum.

Emre

 

That was my impression as well. Excited drivers trying to get signed off ASAP is a dangerous thing! When I run with the BMW CC--Quebec Chapter, for example, we go entire seasons without a single wreck. And believe me...no one is pussyfooting! [To wit: the local PCA chapter politely "dis-invited" our guys from their events because the P-car boys weren't happy being passed by our "lesser" machines.]

The reason why we're both safe AND fast is because we focus on instruction and make sure no one goes solo too soon. Before you can go solo with us, for example, you need to prove that you can drive off-line, manage traffic, communicate while driving...and even drive off-track. Yes, we test drivers by forcing them to track out onto the grass (in a controlled way). Only then can a student be considered for solo.

The clubs I see who skip these steps are generally the ones where a tow truck has to make the rounds after each session. That's not acceptable to us.


That's what happens in most clubs I've seen. If you can lap quickly and pass most of the guys in your group, then you get moved up. That's a recipe for disaster! You end up with "advanced" groups full of moderately skilled drivers in very fast cars. Their skill levels are generally not as refined as the driver thinks they are. They've never paid their dues at the lower levels. Then one day something goes wrong. Maybe they overcook a corner or get a flat tire or overheat their brakes and BAM...they're in the wall scratching their heads trying to figure out WTF just happened.


Again, that's been my impression as well. NASA seems to cater to the crowd that just wants to "race." They put up with the HPDE portion because they have to...but the goal is to get signed off and to race ASAP. Not every club shares that philosophy.

Emre

 

"No offense to anyone here, but the guys who start off with lapping days or try to race through the rungroups to get signed off at all costs are usually the same guys who think they're God's gift to driving...until they stuff their shiny new car into the guardrail one day. Everyone likes to imagine that they're the second coming of Ayrton Senna. But you don't get to that level by just screwing around on the track and trying to copy the lines of the fast guys. Figuring out "the line" is just a tiny part of high-performance driving. You'll learn much quicker with a qualified instructor by your side."




You state "no offense" and then offend me and a few other guys who have posted here. My experience in this sport obviously differs from your recommended course of action. I don't think I am God's gift to driving, I just happened to pick up the line and consistent fast laps much quicker than average.
Given his autocross experience, the OP may find he also picks things up more quickly, or not-neither you nor I know.
Of course receiving good instruction could greatly enhance one's driving progress, and that is great advice I am very much looking forward to learning from the other drivers in NASA next year It is, however, not the only way this can be done. Seat time on the track is not necessarily "screwing around". I have systematically broken down every corner at my two local tracks and planned my attack accordingly. Describing what a every potential poster on this board does on the track in lieu of 1 one 1 instruction as "screwing around" indicates a severe lack of respect for the individual variation obviously present in all of us. I take everything I do seriously, and this is no different. I have made modifications to my car based on what I believed to be it's shortcomings, and have enjoyed the heck out of it! I haven't "wasted my time". I have gotten safely faster and had a blast!
Finally, although you (Emre) will probably never be convinced of this, I have become a pretty decent driver (Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets also has helped me this year as well).
Honestly, if you (Emre) gave advice to me (others) without condescension, you would find me more receptive and less combative. Nobody likes to here-you suck because you didn't do it exactly my way. How about, "you may have gotten faster on your own, but a truly great instructor can help you find that last second or two"?
I know I have much more to learn as a driver, and I would probably be surprised at how much someone like you could teach me. You, sir, would also be surprised at how much someone can learn from just "seat time" and passion for a sport

 

Opinions are like azzholes. Everbody has one (and they all stink). This thread is going downhill fast, gentlemen.