How To Get Started In RoadRacing/TimeAttack?
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 190
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From: Sacramento
That was my impression as well. Excited drivers trying to get signed off ASAP is a dangerous thing! When I run with the BMW CC--Quebec Chapter, for example, we go entire seasons without a single wreck. And believe me...no one is pussyfooting! [To wit: the local PCA chapter politely "dis-invited" our guys from their events because the P-car boys weren't happy being passed by our "lesser" machines.]
The reason why we're both safe AND fast is because we focus on instruction and make sure no one goes solo too soon. Before you can go solo with us, for example, you need to prove that you can drive off-line, manage traffic, communicate while driving...and even drive off-track. Yes, we test drivers by forcing them to track out onto the grass (in a controlled way). Only then can a student be considered for solo.
The clubs I see who skip these steps are generally the ones where a tow truck has to make the rounds after each session. That's not acceptable to us.
That's what happens in most clubs I've seen. If you can lap quickly and pass most of the guys in your group, then you get moved up. That's a recipe for disaster! You end up with "advanced" groups full of moderately skilled drivers in very fast cars. Their skill levels are generally not as refined as the driver thinks they are. They've never paid their dues at the lower levels. Then one day something goes wrong. Maybe they overcook a corner or get a flat tire or overheat their brakes and BAM...they're in the wall scratching their heads trying to figure out WTF just happened.
Again, that's been my impression as well. NASA seems to cater to the crowd that just wants to "race." They put up with the HPDE portion because they have to...but the goal is to get signed off and to race ASAP. Not every club shares that philosophy.
Emre
The reason why we're both safe AND fast is because we focus on instruction and make sure no one goes solo too soon. Before you can go solo with us, for example, you need to prove that you can drive off-line, manage traffic, communicate while driving...and even drive off-track. Yes, we test drivers by forcing them to track out onto the grass (in a controlled way). Only then can a student be considered for solo.
The clubs I see who skip these steps are generally the ones where a tow truck has to make the rounds after each session. That's not acceptable to us.
That's what happens in most clubs I've seen. If you can lap quickly and pass most of the guys in your group, then you get moved up. That's a recipe for disaster! You end up with "advanced" groups full of moderately skilled drivers in very fast cars. Their skill levels are generally not as refined as the driver thinks they are. They've never paid their dues at the lower levels. Then one day something goes wrong. Maybe they overcook a corner or get a flat tire or overheat their brakes and BAM...they're in the wall scratching their heads trying to figure out WTF just happened.
Again, that's been my impression as well. NASA seems to cater to the crowd that just wants to "race." They put up with the HPDE portion because they have to...but the goal is to get signed off and to race ASAP. Not every club shares that philosophy.
Emre
Emre,
Again you wax poetic from parnassas
there are many ways to get fast safely, and instruction is paramount, but the BMWCCA way is not the only way, and there are many NASA regions that do a very good job with driver development, and that have very few accidents or problems, norcal being one such region. I have benifited from having good instruction, and I appreciate it, but I believe I have benifited as much or more from a lot of seat time. In 35 open track events and TT's I have been off track in a spin, etc. exactly 4 times, and I'm not slow either. there are some excellent pro drivers that have not spent years with instructors or driving coaches. I think it's important to point out that your assertion is concerning an OPTIMUM experience, not what HAS to happen in order to be fast and safe.
Haha, well said. I can see both points of views having done HPDEs both with instruction and without instruction. I started out doing HPDEs without instruction and only drove with an instuctor on my 3rd and 4th HPDEs. Unfortunately I feel Emre is correct. On my 5th and 6th HPDEs open lapping days, I was driving without instruction again and I had the pleasure of experiencing being off track and spinning out. I'll tell you what, those were REAL EYE OPENERS! I remembered when in a spin both feet in and when going out both feet out (slowly applying brake pressure to slow the car down). Luckily the track I was on is probably one of the safest tracks in the US (MAM). Seriously there is nothing to hit, unless you aim for the wall and just gun it ignoring all warnings. But the next time I might not be so lucky. There was no damage to my car apart from knocking my alignment out. But it truely made me understand, fear and respect the dynamics of high speed weight transfer. You begin to understand the urgency of being smoother the higher the speed. The need to trail brake less the higher the cornering speed. For beginers, do all your braking in a straight line ...
After driving with instructors and listening to what they said, I realized there was a lot left on the table for me to learn about being fast and smooth at the same time. Everything they said went against what naturally feels fast but it is. It makes you faster while also giving you a higher margin of safety for error. Because of this my driving style for both auto-x and track days have RADICALLY changed. I'm sure the Phase 1 Evolution auto-x school also had a part to play. I guess what I'm trying to say is you really don't learn a lot without making a few mistakes along the way and that is bound to happen to each one of us sooner or later. That is why experience, track time and instruction really counts because you will probably experience a mistake while driving. It might be minor with just a bruised EGO
or it would be major 
. That way you can go over what you did wrong and avoid making those mistakes again.
Honestly I too feel like I'm ready for TT, exactly like most of you do. But I'm not in any rush to get there and I'll let more experienced instructors decide whether I'm fit or not by my actions on the track and by letting them pick my brain for what I know and have come to learn. Wow this ended up being pretty long winded!
After driving with instructors and listening to what they said, I realized there was a lot left on the table for me to learn about being fast and smooth at the same time. Everything they said went against what naturally feels fast but it is. It makes you faster while also giving you a higher margin of safety for error. Because of this my driving style for both auto-x and track days have RADICALLY changed. I'm sure the Phase 1 Evolution auto-x school also had a part to play. I guess what I'm trying to say is you really don't learn a lot without making a few mistakes along the way and that is bound to happen to each one of us sooner or later. That is why experience, track time and instruction really counts because you will probably experience a mistake while driving. It might be minor with just a bruised EGO
or it would be major . That way you can go over what you did wrong and avoid making those mistakes again.Honestly I too feel like I'm ready for TT, exactly like most of you do. But I'm not in any rush to get there and I'll let more experienced instructors decide whether I'm fit or not by my actions on the track and by letting them pick my brain for what I know and have come to learn. Wow this ended up being pretty long winded!
Last edited by DaWorstPlaya; Jan 15, 2007 at 03:37 PM.
agreed. 100%.
Somebody please tell me that MORE seat time, and MORE consistancy will ever be a bad thing.
Sure you're leaving that last 50 feet on the table during that 130-35 braking zone, so what? you're in HPDE. You're not racing.
Since nobody else has suggested stuff for the south, I've never been to any of his, but i'm 100% cetain Jon K puts on a great show @ Roebling with seat-time. Chin Motorsports does events up and down the east coast, and is a GREAT organization for getting mucho seat time.
Nasa in florida SUCKS. your 3-4 sessions, and you're home. Chin, on open days, combined groups, gives you 5+ hrs of time, for a solo approved driver.
5 hours. instead of 1 hour. Go out, run when you want, come back in. Even the dual group days are like 3 hrs of time. I'd reccommend Chin to any first-starter, 100%.
I'm not anybody's gift to driving, but i'm not the worst either. You MUST respect the drivers that have paved the road in front of you, and pay your dues in the lower run groups, etc.
However, it's my honest belief that if you're not a safe, looking around, managing driver after say 6-8 events, thats pretty scary. I understand the first 1-4 are a blur, but by the time you're done with 6 or so, you should have a decent feel on total car control, and should be able to adapt to a new track, and layout fairly quickly.
Again, just my opinion.
Come out to any events and see/watch. The best thing to see, could be watching a corner, outside the car, or even from a passenger seat, where you have more time to download the track and whats going on.
If anybody is ever around, and i'm at an event, come say whats up, meeting people that are into what you're doin, even if they drive something else, is the best part about it. Coming out 2-3 events later and running with the same people, makes it a whole lot more fun.
Somebody please tell me that MORE seat time, and MORE consistancy will ever be a bad thing.
Sure you're leaving that last 50 feet on the table during that 130-35 braking zone, so what? you're in HPDE. You're not racing.
Since nobody else has suggested stuff for the south, I've never been to any of his, but i'm 100% cetain Jon K puts on a great show @ Roebling with seat-time. Chin Motorsports does events up and down the east coast, and is a GREAT organization for getting mucho seat time.
Nasa in florida SUCKS. your 3-4 sessions, and you're home. Chin, on open days, combined groups, gives you 5+ hrs of time, for a solo approved driver.
5 hours. instead of 1 hour. Go out, run when you want, come back in. Even the dual group days are like 3 hrs of time. I'd reccommend Chin to any first-starter, 100%.
I'm not anybody's gift to driving, but i'm not the worst either. You MUST respect the drivers that have paved the road in front of you, and pay your dues in the lower run groups, etc.
However, it's my honest belief that if you're not a safe, looking around, managing driver after say 6-8 events, thats pretty scary. I understand the first 1-4 are a blur, but by the time you're done with 6 or so, you should have a decent feel on total car control, and should be able to adapt to a new track, and layout fairly quickly.
Again, just my opinion.
Come out to any events and see/watch. The best thing to see, could be watching a corner, outside the car, or even from a passenger seat, where you have more time to download the track and whats going on.
If anybody is ever around, and i'm at an event, come say whats up, meeting people that are into what you're doin, even if they drive something else, is the best part about it. Coming out 2-3 events later and running with the same people, makes it a whole lot more fun.
I agree with a lot of Emre's statements, although I do enjoy running with NASA. The title of this thread includes time attack, and there really isn't a better alternative to running time attacks that includes a broad, national level of competition than there is with NASA. I agree with the "quality" seat time argument. Just going to a track won't make you better/faster unless you know how to use that time effectively. There are drivers that can use that extra time effectively, but there are plenty that go to events just based on the amount of time they will receive and they don't get much faster. Instead of going to 30+ trackdays in a given year, why not just do 5-10 with a quality level of instruction. That is best served with a qualified, pro level instructor on a private test day. You can come and go as you please and you get great one on one feedback. Once you develop the foundation, you can then do the events that offer that extra seat time and put it to good use.
There isn't anything wrong with opposing opinions on an internet forum; and for those just getting into motorsports, it offers alternative views so that they, themselves, can make their best, most educated, decisions.
There isn't anything wrong with opposing opinions on an internet forum; and for those just getting into motorsports, it offers alternative views so that they, themselves, can make their best, most educated, decisions.
By the way, I'm not singling anyone out on this forum. I have never met most of you and have no idea how you utilize a trackday, or how naturally talented you may or may not be. I'm just providing an alternative viewpoint.
Johannes, after reading Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets, you would have to agree that "quality" seat time does not just equal seat time.
Johannes, after reading Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets, you would have to agree that "quality" seat time does not just equal seat time.
The most sane post any of us has made.
Amen. I agree that raw seat-time without analysis, feedback, etc. is useless. Even video is helpful. I myself will be adding data analysis this season (just got a G2X) which will prove helpful as well. And true, we are all entitled to our opinions.
Amen. I agree that raw seat-time without analysis, feedback, etc. is useless. Even video is helpful. I myself will be adding data analysis this season (just got a G2X) which will prove helpful as well. And true, we are all entitled to our opinions.
I agree with a lot of Emre's statements, although I do enjoy running with NASA. The title of this thread includes time attack, and there really isn't a better alternative to running time attacks that includes a broad, national level of competition than there is with NASA. I agree with the "quality" seat time argument. Just going to a track won't make you better/faster unless you know how to use that time effectively. There are drivers that can use that extra time effectively, but there are plenty that go to events just based on the amount of time they will receive and they don't get much faster. Instead of going to 30+ trackdays in a given year, why not just do 5-10 with a quality level of instruction. That is best served with a qualified, pro level instructor on a private test day. You can come and go as you please and you get great one on one feedback. Once you develop the foundation, you can then do the events that offer that extra seat time and put it to good use.
There isn't anything wrong with opposing opinions on an internet forum; and for those just getting into motorsports, it offers alternative views so that they, themselves, can make their best, most educated, decisions.
There isn't anything wrong with opposing opinions on an internet forum; and for those just getting into motorsports, it offers alternative views so that they, themselves, can make their best, most educated, decisions.
In my opinion...... if you want to have a lot of fun and become a pretty good driver over a long period of time, do HPDEs. If you want to become a very good driver in a much shorter time, attend a real 3-day racing school.
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Joined: Jul 2004
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The cheapest, fastest and safest way to "get up to speed" at the track is thru private, one on one, instruction.
Put together a shortlist of local candidates and make some calls.
Of course "quality" seat time is the way to go. I have only my experience as a point of reference-so my advice is limited to that.
I'm sure one on one instruction with a truly good instructor is the fastest way to get fast. Unfortunately, I did not have any guidance 3 years ago and just approached it as a learning process. I broke down the variables at play and improved each one until I found it's limit (braking, corner entry speed, timing and amplitude of throttle application, the line, etc. etc.). I also then played with car selection-Mazda RX8, then VW R32, then Evo VIII. All the while modding them (probably 40+ alignments, tires, sway bars, diff software changes, springs/struts, power......etc) to try to imrpove performance and lap times. It was/is one of the most satisfying/fun experiences of my life to date
Probably a very time inefficient way to progress, but it worked for me up to this point. I got some "fast" without considerable incident (4 off 3 times-always in an area where I had nice run off). Now I want more and will pursue it with NASA.
I just got a little pissy because my experience as stated was attacked by someone who has never met me-I apologize (particularly in another thread)
Soak up every thing you can everywhere you can (read books, boards, listen to other drivers/instructors) and very critically evaluate everything you do on the track. Every lap is a learniing experience when properly examined.
And, if you can get instruction from the Rahal team here in Michigan-sign me up!!
Good luck to all and I'll see you at the track-driving the fastest consistent laps I know how (any instruction as to to how to run faster will fall on eager and willing ears 
).
I'm sure one on one instruction with a truly good instructor is the fastest way to get fast. Unfortunately, I did not have any guidance 3 years ago and just approached it as a learning process. I broke down the variables at play and improved each one until I found it's limit (braking, corner entry speed, timing and amplitude of throttle application, the line, etc. etc.). I also then played with car selection-Mazda RX8, then VW R32, then Evo VIII. All the while modding them (probably 40+ alignments, tires, sway bars, diff software changes, springs/struts, power......etc) to try to imrpove performance and lap times. It was/is one of the most satisfying/fun experiences of my life to date
Probably a very time inefficient way to progress, but it worked for me up to this point. I got some "fast" without considerable incident (4 off 3 times-always in an area where I had nice run off). Now I want more and will pursue it with NASA.
I just got a little pissy because my experience as stated was attacked by someone who has never met me-I apologize (particularly in another thread)
Soak up every thing you can everywhere you can (read books, boards, listen to other drivers/instructors) and very critically evaluate everything you do on the track. Every lap is a learniing experience when properly examined.
And, if you can get instruction from the Rahal team here in Michigan-sign me up!!
Good luck to all and I'll see you at the track-driving the fastest consistent laps I know how (any instruction as to to how to run faster will fall on eager and willing ears
).
Last edited by johannes; Jan 16, 2007 at 06:35 AM.
I'm curious about the racing schools like Skip Barber. I've heard others advocate that they are extremely effective. What is it about them that makes them so productive in a short amount of time, compared to the HPDE setting?
And do they make sense if you aren't on the verge of getting into the wheel to wheel racing? How much of the focus is on driving the track, vs. dealing with traffic, passing, etc.?
And do they make sense if you aren't on the verge of getting into the wheel to wheel racing? How much of the focus is on driving the track, vs. dealing with traffic, passing, etc.?
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento
These types of threads are always frustrating to me. It seems that none of us are actually listening at times, myself included, and it also seems like some of the more experienced people are more interested in being expert and authoritative than being truly helpful. I guess it's just a function of guys/egos. It was muuch the same when I started bicycle racing years ago...it was next to impossible to get real help and guidance, but it was always possible to find someone to tell you how you were f****** up your training, even when you were beating them in races and advancing 2 categories in a year...
I would like to see this forum moderated by some folks that have proven, verifiable experience as racers, instructors etc that can provide guidance for constructive conversation around a variety of motorsports related issues. A lot of people that post in this particular forum are genuinely interested in getting better, faster, safer within the confines of their limitations, financially, environmentally etc. It would be nice to hear "this is the optimum way to do things, but if you can't do it the optimum way I would suggest.......etc"
My final 2 cents on the issue.
I would like to see this forum moderated by some folks that have proven, verifiable experience as racers, instructors etc that can provide guidance for constructive conversation around a variety of motorsports related issues. A lot of people that post in this particular forum are genuinely interested in getting better, faster, safer within the confines of their limitations, financially, environmentally etc. It would be nice to hear "this is the optimum way to do things, but if you can't do it the optimum way I would suggest.......etc"
My final 2 cents on the issue.
Great well written post as always Percy
I will endeavor to give advice I believe is truly valuable to others here, as I have been aided tremendously through use of this forum as a resource-thank you to all of you in this community.
You brought up bicycle racing. I raced mountain bikes for quite a few years and still am an avid cyclist (both on and off road). I honestly believe mtn. biking experience gave me a leg up on others at the track. Things happen very quickly in both sports, and reaction times, focus, handling on the edge are both necessary and trained through practice. In addition, regular cardio/fitness is a great asset to have at a track day.
My physical fitness priovides me with an advantage-stamina, clarity and focus deep into the track day, ability to withstand the physical rigors the g-forces impart on your body...etc.-that many I see at the track have clearly missed out on.
My advice is to get into good cardiovascular shape (again mtn. biking would be an excellent choice), and engage in some basic level of core strengthening exercises in order to help you physically and mentally (as fitness gives you more stamina) at the track. Nutrition is another important element, but as soon as I said exercise I know most of you stopped reading , so I'll stop. An added bonus is some of you will probably get some free weight reduction in the process
So for the rest of you stuck in the snow with me-stop reading this, get off your a--, and get in shape-as I feel tracking a car has a very obvious physical component (and on this topic I am an expert-it's my job
I will endeavor to give advice I believe is truly valuable to others here, as I have been aided tremendously through use of this forum as a resource-thank you to all of you in this community.
You brought up bicycle racing. I raced mountain bikes for quite a few years and still am an avid cyclist (both on and off road). I honestly believe mtn. biking experience gave me a leg up on others at the track. Things happen very quickly in both sports, and reaction times, focus, handling on the edge are both necessary and trained through practice. In addition, regular cardio/fitness is a great asset to have at a track day.
My physical fitness priovides me with an advantage-stamina, clarity and focus deep into the track day, ability to withstand the physical rigors the g-forces impart on your body...etc.-that many I see at the track have clearly missed out on.
My advice is to get into good cardiovascular shape (again mtn. biking would be an excellent choice), and engage in some basic level of core strengthening exercises in order to help you physically and mentally (as fitness gives you more stamina) at the track. Nutrition is another important element, but as soon as I said exercise I know most of you stopped reading
, so I'll stop. An added bonus is some of you will probably get some free weight reduction in the process So for the rest of you stuck in the snow with me-stop reading this, get off your a--, and get in shape-as I feel tracking a car has a very obvious physical component (and on this topic I am an expert-it's my job
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento
Great well written post as always Percy
I will endeavor to give advice I believe is truly valuable to others here, as I have been aided tremendously through use of this forum as a resource-thank you to all of you in this community.
You brought up bicycle racing. I raced mountain bikes for quite a few years and still am an avid cyclist (both on and off road). I honestly believe mtn. biking experience gave me a leg up on others at the track. Things happen very quickly in both sports, and reaction times, focus, handling on the edge are both necessary and trained through practice. In addition, regular cardio/fitness is a great asset to have at a track day.
My physical fitness priovides me with an advantage-stamina, clarity and focus deep into the track day, ability to withstand the physical rigors the g-forces impart on your body...etc.-that many I see at the track have clearly missed out on.
My advice is to get into good cardiovascular shape (again mtn. biking would be an excellent choice), and engage in some basic level of core strengthening exercises in order to help you physically and mentally (as fitness gives you more stamina) at the track. Nutrition is another important element, but as soon as I said exercise I know most of you stopped reading , so I'll stop. An added bonus is some of you will probably get some free weight reduction in the process
So for the rest of you stuck in the snow with me-stop reading this, get off your a--, and get in shape-as I feel tracking a car has a very obvious physical component (and on this topic I am an expert-it's my job
I will endeavor to give advice I believe is truly valuable to others here, as I have been aided tremendously through use of this forum as a resource-thank you to all of you in this community.
You brought up bicycle racing. I raced mountain bikes for quite a few years and still am an avid cyclist (both on and off road). I honestly believe mtn. biking experience gave me a leg up on others at the track. Things happen very quickly in both sports, and reaction times, focus, handling on the edge are both necessary and trained through practice. In addition, regular cardio/fitness is a great asset to have at a track day.
My physical fitness priovides me with an advantage-stamina, clarity and focus deep into the track day, ability to withstand the physical rigors the g-forces impart on your body...etc.-that many I see at the track have clearly missed out on.
My advice is to get into good cardiovascular shape (again mtn. biking would be an excellent choice), and engage in some basic level of core strengthening exercises in order to help you physically and mentally (as fitness gives you more stamina) at the track. Nutrition is another important element, but as soon as I said exercise I know most of you stopped reading
, so I'll stop. An added bonus is some of you will probably get some free weight reduction in the process So for the rest of you stuck in the snow with me-stop reading this, get off your a--, and get in shape-as I feel tracking a car has a very obvious physical component (and on this topic I am an expert-it's my job
Not to poison the thread too much...but I agree on the fitness point. It's nice to be able to do 7-8 20 minute sessions with ease. I still do duathlons, trail runs and mountain bike a lot in the winter for general fitness. Multisport events are a blast, and I find I'm heallthier running and riding than when I was riding 300 miles a week. there are a few ex-roadies on here, including Robi. Also, years of criteriums were invaluable in helping to get a feel for the line, the straightest way around a track, as you have to do that in a bike race as well. Whatever helps!
Last edited by Percywork; Jan 16, 2007 at 11:35 AM. Reason: add more text
Not to poison the thread too much...but I agree on the fitness point. It's nice to be able to do 7-8 20 minute sessions with ease. I still do duathlons, trail runs and mountain bike a lot in the winter for general fitness. Multisport events are a blast, and I find I'm heallthier running and riding than when I was riding 300 miles a week. there are a few ex-roadies on here, including Robi. Also, years of criteriums were invaluable in helping to get a feel for the line, the straightest way around a track, as you have to do that in a bike race as well. Whatever helps!
I wish i was in better physical shape than i am though. That, like my driving, is of course... a work in progress.