Warrtalon, if the car is to be used on the street, occasionaly on the track, I PERSONALLY would not put a cage in the car. If it were the other way around and the car saw mainly track use then a full on roll cage would be in order. Please don't start with your crazy talk crap with me. Save it for the newbies.
He asked a questions about rear passengers. I answered it with what I believe to be the best possible solution. If your opinion is otherwise then so be it.
Ther are a TON of people out on the track without rollcages and just the use of a harness bar seems to work JUST FINE.

 

Based on nothing. He has his own little world that he lives in.

 

Of course those cars are "JUST FINE" because they haven't rolled over yet. One could argue that the 6-speed 4th gears are "JUST FINE" if used at the track several times without failure also.

Have you seen those harness bar'd cars rolled over? Ask the driver of the harness bar'd evo who rolled (thread on SoCalEVO) that was in the hopital for a few months. Not cool..

I think the problem may have more to do with people wearing harnesses in a car w/ no rollover protection more than the harness bar itself. Keeping the head upright with the roof collapsing is just NOT GOOD PERIOD.

 

You're missing the point completely while tossing in some DTM hatred along with it, I see. That's fine. Everyone else here understands EXCEPT for you, and I don't like you enough to educate you. Newbies, hah! You may not be a newbie, but not understanding why it's unwise to use a harness bar on track and with passengers in the rear on the road is very telling.

I have no cage, and I run blistering times without a harness bar or harness. Guess what, I can have 3 rear passengers or my infant son in the back while daily driving, too!

 

People are still debating harness bars? Jeez I thought this issue was put to rest a long time ago.
Here is the basic problem since apparently some people don't get it (which is fine, took me a while to understand it too). In a street car using the stock safety system the seats can and do move in a rollover, they are able to collapse towards the center line of the car thus providing enough space when the roof caves in for the occupants. If you use a harness bar, this isn't possible. The harnesses effectively act as an anchor that holds the seat upwards. If the roof collapses in there is nothing stopping it from crushing your head/spine and disabling/killing the occupants. This is why a roll cage (4 pt. or higher) is a must if you run harnesses. By using harnesses you are effectively negating the stock rollover protection system thus you must compensate for it by adding a bar that stops the roof from collapsing.
Note: This implies that you are using the harness bar as a mount for harnesses not for structural rigidity (I know it sounds stupid but someone has indeed got on my case for this asumption). I can see using a harness bar if all you do is auto-x and you don't drive around with the harnesses set up (ie. you put them in at the auto-x course and take them out when you're done).

 

Exactly - that's the only proper use.

 

I'm still shocked this is even being discussed. I can understand it coming up in the lancer forums since a lot of the owners are young and don't have any racing experience (and some are just plain ricers) but to come up in the motorsports section and be debated it truly astonishing.

 

Well, it's really just Planet Evo acting tough and telling us not to talk to him like a newbie while concurrently saying it's ok to use a harness bar on track and on the street (with harnesses). Yowza.

 

get your car seem welded.

 

Well, actually its not just Planet Evo, I take exception to the seemingly baseless statement and tone.

This talk about the stock system and OEM 3 points protecting you better in a roll than a harness bar and multi point restraint system is simply unfounded. As a matter of fact I would go in as far to disagree as I have recently provided care for a person who suffered a fracture of C6 as a result of hitting the roof when their restraint system (the OEM 3 point some seem to find to be so wonderful) failed to stop them from being propelled upward striking their head on the roof. They also suffered a large laceration for the trouble and ended up getting lord only knows how many hours of surgery as a result.

I would also say that under track conditions I find myself to be moving around in the car far too much for my liking. I get tossed left and right and forward with a good amount of force and regularity... I for one like the idea of having a more secure driving position and feel that the harness bar addresses this need IF it is a quality product and is installed properly. The harness would also need be a quality product and would need to be squared away but this is no different than a roll bar in that they are often of varying quality... in the end the debate to me seems to be roll over protection.

So, what about roll overs. The worry here is intrusion into the passenger compartment. I for one sit very high in the car, much higher than most and I still have several inches of headroom between the top of my helmet and the roof. If you look at pics of other folks on the track many folks would seem to have at least 8-10" of vertical intrusion before there was any worry about such an issue. As the seat top is just as high as many folks heads this adds extra protection and further detracts from the argument that the harness bar "is about as bad as it gets".

Now one thing that is not addressed is that side intrusion could be an issue. Of the traumas I see the injuries from intrusion from the side far outnumber roof intrusion. As all restraint systems use lap belts I do not think that this could be used as an argument for or against any of them.

In short I find that being secure in the proper driving position with less movement before or during a crash is preferable to being less secure. I also find that this is easily preferable to any dubious claims that roll overs will result in cabin intrusion which will obviously kill you... its just not supported by logic or any evidence that I have been able to find, and believe me I looked.

Now, would a full cage be best in a crash? Heck yeah it would be. Sadly it seems that EVERY system provides trade offs and short of some of the fully integrated systems I have seen provided by a number of German and JDM tuners. I'm sure some Americans are doing the same but I have yet to see the work and would love to have such a system in my car but cash is ultimately an issue as are other things that will be dependent on personal needs, use and budget.

 

Let me rephrase for the third TIME.
HE ASKED a question. I answered the question. HE OBVIOUSLY is not a dedicated track racer. Probably going to attend some car guy events. SO a Harness bar would be JUST FINE. Don't try and convince me or others its NOT. Because it is. He has just as much of a chance to roll on the highway as he would going around a 1 mile infield.

BUT let me ADD I would rather everyone is existence use the proper safety equipment from the getgo. THE INCLUDES the rollcage.

 

Im not sure what the DTM comment is about, but I will disregard.
I understand just fine. How this became an argument to unbelievable proportions is beyond me. No need to educate proff. I am just fine on my own thank you.
If someone had the choice to run a roll cage or a harness bar WHILE the car had 99% strret duty in front of its lifespan. I CHOSE TO RECOMMEND A HARNESS BAR. Pure and simple. Stop only looking at it in your own point of view. The bar has the ability to be removed after his weekend session with ease. The roll cage does not. So please understand other peoples point of views without argumentative ramblings about YOUR track times.....blah blah blah.

 

{personal attack deleted, please refer to forum rules -UK} I said it is more comfortable to use the harness bar for a rear passenger than a rollcage. PERIOD. IT IS. As far as safety is concerned a roll cage is optimal. What is so difficult to understand?

 

dsycks, that's why we use a nice simple $40 CG Lock. It holds you in place almost as well as a full harness with none of the danger. You are trying to refute what others know as common knowledge.

Haha, give me a break. You said that if you could do it over again, you'd do a harness bar instead of a roll bar. Hello, that is not just answering the guy's question. Even if all you were saying is that a harness bar is more comfortable for rear passengers than a roll bar, that's still a very unintelligent thing to suggest. Why is it that everyone else understands the danger to a passenger with a harness bar in the way AND the danger to a driver using harness daily without a helmet (except dsycks apparently)?

 

Yup if I had it over that is all I would use. As I said I cold remove it. Hook on phonics, try it. Maybe it will help with your reading skills.