Yeah, I'm pretty much all over the map on this one. I have another thread going about the Evo at Willow and T8. With Willow, I'm an expert. Been racing bikes there every month since '95 or'06, and raced cars there a couple of years in the late '90's. OK, I'm at Mueller's yesterday, and he's talking about him setting the lap record in some Evo 8 on street tires. .32.9 I think, and I'm totally underwhelmed, as I've turned .29's in a '74 911 with a 3.2(Porsche claimed 217hp in'84 when the 3.2 came out), 8's and 9's, sway bars, proper chassis set up, but stock shocks. Car is lighter, but with AWD, better suspension, and more power, why doesn't the Evo do better? He keeps mentioning the Evo's weight, and it's a "Taxi-cab"

How much is/was the weight difference between the two? I know a guy here that drives an 80s Carrera on track and hauls ***, but its because it weighs as much as the spec miatas and has more power. You have to think in terms of 3200 lbs 300 hp = 10.67 lbs/hp... 2500 lbs/217hp = 11.5 lbs/hp. Now with a quick search the only weight I could find was for a '74 Carrera RS is 2149.9 lbs. I realize you didn't say that it was an RS but that gives you a BETTER power to weight ratio than the Evo (and that's assuming the Evo has 300, and not 280ish like it does). And on top of that you'll be able to corner and brake much better etc etc since you're almost 1000 lbs lighter. (Again, dunno how much your 911 weighed, but I assume it isn't more than 500 more than the RS model)

-Which brings me to this-:

I remember about the same time I was racing cars, the precursor to the American LeMans series (Petite Lemans?), had BMW 3-series, battling it out with 911 GT-3's. I remember the BMW's usually getting the best of the P's. Yes these were full-on possibly factory built 3's, but they still had to have all the heavy basics like the chassis, motor, drivetrain etc.. My point here is, the 3 is about equal or less impressive than then Evo stock.. Yes? Of all the Evo's and all the guys racing them, someone somewhere has had to have the money and hook-up to get the thing in line with the previously mentioned 3's. There's a lot of BMW's out there near this configuration, and knowing what I do about the costs of modding a BMW vs. the cost of modding an Evo, it seems that there would be a fair number of Evo's out there like this. Heck, I bought the Evo because of it's performance and relatively low cost of modding it, and I'm average Joe. I don't buy a car because it's hood emblem is gonna give me a facade of having lots of money. I buy it based on what it's gonna do for me.

As for this, I couldn't even begin to tell you other than to say from experience that I've seen a few very fast "3 series" BMWs out on the track. I say it in quotes because every one I've seen has done enough motor work (often M3 swap) that they're pushing at least 250 to the wheels. Often a little less weight than me and almost always way more track prep (I'm not putting Moton Motorsports on my DD ever, or a roll cage).

If it's hard to follow what I'm trying to get at here, it's because I myself am confused. Knowing (thinking?) how good the base platform you get with this car, where are the 600-700hp, GT3-beating Evo's?

There are plenty. AMS's time attack car is the first one that pops into my head. I wouldn't want to face them in a GT3-RS, let alone a GT3. But almost all the faster time attack/racing Evos are easily GT3-beating Evo's, even with 400-500 whp, assuming the GT3 is stock of course. I think part of the reason there aren't as many is that most of the Evo enthusiasts DD their Evo (its why mine never got gutted) and most of the guys who have the money to get a car to get serious into racing buy cars to their own weird tastes (rather than for performance). I.E. we have a Mustang GT racing league here that A LOT of rich folk have got into. As a further example (okay, this doesn't work because you bought the best performer for the money) but why does anyone choose one car over another? The Evo is a GREAT base platform, but lots of people have lots of different tastes, that should be obvious from the way the automotive industry is.

As far as Pontiacs... We'll stay away from them as long as possible...

 

Evos generally do very well on moderately twisty tracks. On really short, twisty tracks, the weight starts becoming a hindrance, and cars like the Elise/Exige, etc. will fare better. Move to a track with really long straigths, and the Evo starts hurting against big HP cars. If you look at the records and track times of various events/series, the numbers pretty much support that, with a few notable exceptions, such as the HKS TA Evo, the AMS TA Evo and a few others.

Rear-biased AWD is the best platform. Audi has proven this in several series (DTM, IMSA, etc.) and in all cases the AWD was banned after Audi cleaned house. The fact that the Evo is AWD (and turbo charged) makes it more difficult to get it into the better known racing series. It seems that right now Time Attack, Autocross events, and SCCA T2 are the few venues that Evos are being raced in. Would be great to see Evos in the WTCC or some of the faster "GT" type classes. Would be even better to see serious Group-N cars in the US (along with a WRC event to race them at).

l8r)

 

I'm just gonna keep believing that Pontiac doesn't build fast cars. I need my world to have a certain order, and knowing that there's a stock Pontiac convertible out there that'll spank my car around the track of all places, will turn the world I live in, on it's ear. I can't have that right now.

Dont you worry yourself too much as that Pontiac is far from "stock". Simply put the same mods on your evo ie stiffer-lower springs, sway bars, and 275/18 tires and i think you will be more than happy how the Evo stacks up. Also, if it puts things back in order, the Solstice was recently rated the least dependable car sold in America.
Marty

 

Hey UT Evo..
You know if the AMS car as ever been to Willow? If so, you know the times?
I'm thinking I'll hit up a POC event there. I know enough about the POC to know a car's mods by it's race classification on it's doors. I could pick out a car on the track I think should be equal in performance to the Evo I have, and follow it around to see how the Evo stacks up. Knowing how the Evo compares to cars I know (the only cars I've even had on a track) might get my mind clear on this. The whole thing means nothing, yet my limited brain function is working over time on it.
My luck will have me getting my *** handed to me by some chick in a Solstice , with a rainbow sticker on the back of her helmet:-)

 

Weight is always detrimental in many cars, but as has been mentioned in here before it affects different people in different ways.

But the fact of the matter is that if you take 150-200 lbs out of a car, you'll go .5-2.0 seconds faster depending on the car.

I think on the same tires it would take about 500 whp and a good suspension to beat a GT3 in an Evo.

 

Hmmmmm I dunno..
They say 10 pounds per hp. That'd be 15-20hp, and I don't think that'd equate to 2 seconds in a 3000 pound car. Maybe a 80hp motorcycle...

 

I'm sure it would equate to 2 seconds on the Nuerburgring ...

l8r)

 

My general notion is that 180-200 lbs costs me a second maybe a little more on a 2.5 mile track. If you are in a momentum car that 200 lbs can make a much bigger difference on your times, especially on a longer track 3+ miles. That's the only reason I said higher.

And hp/weight isnt the only concern anyways, you have to factor in braking and cornering g's that are affected by the extra weight as well.

 

Kevin, I don't think it's something you have to worry about for a track day car. The performance that all of those heavy parts provide more than make up for their presence in lbs.

If you were building an open class-anything goes car weight would be an issue, but otherwise.. no.

The Evo is one of those cars like the GTR that performs beyond what it's numbers suggest.