donour

iTrader: (6)

I'm not sure that's exactly what I said (or meant to say). After all, I'm just about the lightest car in the whole national STU field (under 3000 if you go really, really, REALLY low on fuel), but I always finish deep in the midpack.

Tire and driver make the biggest difference. But it is a good to look at the 2008 results from STU and see that Geoff, Russ, and Rick (4 of the top 10 finishes) were in 2003 cars. They are down in power and short one limited slip, but the weight and exceptional driving made it back up.

However, I'm with the SEB/STAC on the ralliart. I think it belongs in STU, even though it probably can't ever win. Although, I don't think an Evo X can win either. I'm anxious to see how the vorshlag car does next week.


d

spool_sample

iTrader: (3)

I agree entirely. Weight is most of the reason why you can put a diff in an ST Civic and commence beating up on quite a few STX WRX drivers.

RaNGVR-4

iTrader: (4)

Its not irrelevant, but i do not think its all one can base possible performance on anymore. The Ralliart has potential to generate lots of mechanical grip and speed. These street tires now-a-days can handle the weight and heat with how much grip they have. A 245 isnt even that small when on a 9.5 inch rim (I know STX is limited on rim size though).

Ill say this, there are too many variables to even predict the outcome, be it drivers, weather, course design, ect. All Im saying, is I too, agree with the SEB to bump the Ralliart up. It will definately not be competetive in STU though, no possible way, not unless it can gain the power an evo has.

Silencer

iTrader: (4)

uh-oh, I'm going to have to, unofficially , disagree with you're assessment of "class killer" Pat. In full STX trim, the weight is still the driving component to place the car in STX. Same weight argument can be made for moving the Evo X to BS leaving the 8/9 in AS (). Don't forget the Ralliart has a smaller single scroll turbo and smaller cams for trying to make it on par with the X's hp. It might be able to slightly better the WRX, but certainly not a class breaker. Then there's the, IMHO, less than steller launch with the new trans compared to it's rival manual trans WRX (We know how you love the IX launch ). That's got to be .3 in the first 60 foot even around the first corner of an average Solo2 course. WRX's are pulling 1.6's-1.8's on decent pavement. I have seen the early data on X's to be 2.05-2.2. I don't believe the Ralliart has the X's Yaw control either. However, it does have a higher CG than the WRX in STX trim.

A comment made earlier about the electronics/MIVEC in the IX vs the VIII in Autocross competition kind of nails it with the Ralliart. On paper the IX should be superior to the VIII like the Ralliart to the WRX, but after 3 years of STU developement, the results do not show that it can make any better use of the limiting 245 tire. On that note, I would still opt for an IX over the VIII or the X.

As for the X in STU, to fat

Dave

goofygrin

iTrader: (5)

We'll see the 1st weekend in April how the Vorshlag X MR does in Houston... but my car is competitive locally in STU (although I am not). The Texas Region has enough trophy holders to compare against too...

Ookami

iTrader: (19)

Ralliart should be in STX, but apparently the powers that be want to pick on the slower fat kid.

Washburn

I have to take partial exception to this...at least for Day 2. (Day 1 was a disaster)

donour

iTrader: (6)

offtopic: Are you coming to houston? BSP looks sparse.

d

Silencer

iTrader: (4)

Against local talent maybe. Looking at Terry/Brian's competition, it does not look like a true equal level Driver/Evo X performance comparison. Paul is good and I see Vitek won last years Tour, but both finished 26th and 21st at Nationals respectively (Sorry Paul, cones suck ). No Evo IX in the field. One Mustang (2 dr), one Mazdaspeed 6, one M3, one Evo 8 (2 dr), and the balance STI's.

From a driver's perspective, who do you think is comparible to Terry or Brian?

Yaw control and quick shifts won't over come 250+ lbs. on a 245 tire given car prep and driver are equal. If it did, I would be a proud owner of an X.

<Sorry, off topic>

Dave

donour

iTrader: (6)

*cough*

Charles DONOUR Sizemore

Silencer

iTrader: (4)

Sorry, didn't place your name with the log in . Go get'um!

Dave

goofygrin

iTrader: (5)

This thread is so far OT I don't think anyone's going to complain at this point lol.

Yaw control on the X actually hurts performance in the slaloms IMO. The slaloms are too fast and make the computer stupid.

Two weekends ago, Amy Fair (she's a national champ right?) drove in the 1st heat at the local SCCA event (which was slower than the 3rd heat when STU ran) and beat every single STU driver (including Terry) in the X MR.

Amy Fair: 37.293
Terry Fair: 37.447
Paul Magyar: 37.667

For comparison's sake, here's some more National/Regional Champion/Person of Interest's times that same day:
Mark Madarash (ESP wicked fast F body): 35.054
Ken Orgeron (GS Mini S): 37.292
Mark Berry (FP VIII): 35.391

Edit to add the PAX results (for what its worth):
1 XESP 91 Mark Madarash 35.054 *0.846 29.655 0.000 0.000
2 XGS 1 Ken Orgeron Mini Cooper S 37.292 *0.821 30.616 0.961 0.961
3 XFM 133 Gary Kramer Zink F440 33.928 *0.903 30.637 0.021 0.982
4 SS 180 Jermey Foley Corvette 35.965 *0.856 30.786 0.149 1.131
5 SS 80 Jon Wagner Corvette 36.015 *0.856 30.828 0.042 1.173
6 FP 181 Mark Berry Mitsubishi Evolution 35.391 *0.872 30.861 0.033 1.206
7 FP 81 Sebastian Berry Mitsubishi Evolution 35.497 *0.872 30.953 0.092 1.298
8 XSTX 7 Matt Lucas BMW 328 37.746 *0.822 31.027 0.074 1.372
9 SS 72 Mark Wortham 2004 Corvette Z06 36.408 *0.856 31.165 0.138 1.510
10 WSTU 195 Amy Fair Evo X 37.293 *0.836 31.176 0.011 1.521
11 AS 58 Brad Maxcy corvette 37.074 *0.843 31.253 0.077 1.598
12 XSTU 195 Terry Fair Evo X 37.447 *0.836 31.305 0.052 1.650
13 SS 52 David Jones Z06 36.590 *0.856 31.321 0.016 1.666
14 SM 115 Tim Bergin Subaru WRX 36.144 *0.867 31.336 0.015 1.681
15 STS 36 neal bellamy Mazda Miata 38.224 *0.820 31.343 0.007 1.688
16 STU 4 Paul Magyar Subaru STI 37.667 *0.836 31.489 0.146 1.834

So the STU competition wasn't 100% national level for sure, but we're all just making paper accusations at this point We'll for sure see how everyone does this summer.

Now I'm not saying that the X (GSR or MR) will dominate (that's just silly), however to say that it's not competitive at a national level might be a bit, ahem, premature.

I do agree though, that weight to contact patch will be a very limiting factor.

goofygrin

iTrader: (5)

No, unless someone wants to buy me some tires and sway bars. I know I'd get my rear handed to me but it would be a good experience... and I'd likely have a VERY pissed off wife (I've been at the track or autocrossing every weekend for going on the 5th or 6th weekend this weekend). She wants me to have some off weekends for a couple weeks

donour

iTrader: (6)

Come win some. :-p

d

Silencer

iTrader: (4)

Respectfully, Amy Fair has made the boys look pretty bad at several National events and certainly deserves her status as a National Champ, but comparing Mark's and Amy's time does not help your case in showing that the X is competitive with National level drivers. Pax (as your using) gives the Evo X .3 on a 30-second course. Not the 2.239 seconds difference in this example.

We could debate this all day, but you are correct in saying, we will see.

Dave