Unlikely, but does anyone have any input on pin-turning an X/MR, as in rallycross competition? The turning radius is excessive and sometimes the car cannot negotiate obnoxiously tight hairpins. My options seem to be left-foot braking, handbrake turn or steering flick. LFB is said to be hard on the SST trans because it causes the clutches to slip or something. I've heard it said you can't handbrake turn with the SST. Don't know if that's true or not. And the AYC seems to fight the steering flick. The car just seems to do only what it wants to do. Which is nearly always fast. But on occasion...

My last option is to destabilize the car with stiff rear springs. But I'm afraid that will hurt the normally excellent balance on all the non hairpins. And yes, I've tried the short and long version of turning off anti-skid, and have tried all three diff locking modes. Best combo seems to be full anti-skid off and tarmac mode but I still can't throw the car around at will.

 

Very simple really. Get out of CZ4A. Get into CP9A/CT9A

As for using the handbrake, in the VIII and IX the ACD unlocks to prevent damage. I can only assume that the X does something similar.

RobevoRS (I think that's his handle) rallies an X, but it's probably a GSR. Still probably a good starting point.

 

the SST shouldn't be a factor on this.
Your ACD is what needs to be consider as a problem. That is your connection between the SST and the rear wheels.

Now in the Evo as you apply the E-break or hand break the ACD instantly disconnect the rear wheels from the ACD. Prevent the ACD to suffer any damage.

So you can use the E-break to rotate the car . I would practice first the body roll turn then give some help with the e-break. Also since you have an MR the left foot break shouldn't be an issue.

Also i find the best for any surface the Gravel mode. Little bit looser so for me the car is more nimble .

I hope it helped

Rob

/sorry i forgot, i have a GSR base model, and turn the S-AWC completely off/

 

Thanks Rob, good info.

One of the benefits of my living in a small desert town is I can regularly test. I have nearby both a dirt road test track and drylake. I've tested multiple times with the different diff modes and while the three modes felt somewhat different, my data-logger said there was no actual advantage over the Tarmac mode. Perhaps the additional looseness of the Gravel mode is sometimes an advantage and sometimes disadvantage, so they cancel out overall.

I've not used LFB or handbrake turns simply because rumor has it they're hard on the SST, and I'm terrified of breaking that gold-plated lump. I can't afford to replace it and I can't count on warranty given the circumstances. But since your info contradicts those rumors, I'll go ahead and do some e-brake testing. If that works out, I'm in business. Thanks a lot.

BTW, "S-AWC completely off" means holding the anti-skid button for three seconds or so right? Does that have any influence on anti-lock braking? Seems like not, on my car. The anti-lock braking is a real pain because I WANT to induce a skid, and the electronics won't let me. They just bring me to a nice safe STRAIGHT stop, totally screwing my corner entry plans. It's embarrassing. (And cost me a trophy at last weeks National Championships.)

-- Bill

 

I think if you have a good cooling for your SST , you will be fine with the LFB./like an extra tranny cooler fan or something. Get rid of the Fog lights. That is for show. You can get the OEM X RS mesh like $40 each . Looks better /i think/ also.
You need to hold the S-AWC button down like 5 sec. It turns off most of the "help" in the AWD system.
What will you have after, is a very advanced JDM AWD CT9A system Including the AYC...
Also if i may , when you go into the turn, try to make turn in before the turn and correct it, then make a turn . Kind a like swing a car before turn . Not much just a little . It will give you enough momentum to turn in without the E-break. If the Hairpin is not to tight. example:
2 minute 26 sec after the Blue Pegueot does it very visible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oKQF901y_E

When you turn off the S-AWC it does turns off the break assist for the AWD.


and when you will be a master then you can do it like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucXA1V6OxrA

 

I think we're talking about the same thing, but I don't know why you'd call it the S-AWC button. As I understand it, S-AWC is the generic term for the combined action of several systems. The button we're talking about is marked ASC OFF. One short press turns off the traction control which is basically a throttle inhibitor. A three second press turns off the braking portion of AYC, and that's all it does. Now turning off the traction control is pretty straight forward. But turning off AYC brake assist is a little fuzzier for me as to how it actually affects the car. I would think adding inside rear wheel braking would assist rotation, but in practice I find the car rotates even better without it. Hence the confusion.

I get similarly confused with the the actual effect of the ACD (Which the manual stupidly calls "S-AWC"). Ignoring the label, the ACD, Tarmac/Gravel/Snow only controls how quickly the normally locked diff is unlocked upon turning the steering wheel. Okay, it also determines how firmly the unit is locked before release. But now the confusing part. Unlocking the diff is said to promote turn-in because if it were left locked there would be bind due to the front wheels taking a longer path around a corner than the rear wheels. Tarmac releases immediately, gravel slightly later and snow several seconds later. So according to theory, snow and gravel should promote pushing due to the front tires not getting as firm a grip. This would be a safety factor to avoid spinning on slippery surfaces. But again, in practice, it doesn't seem to work this way. On dirt I get more rotation with gravel and snow, not less. Yet somehow it hurts my lap times slightly.

Anyway, until I figure all this stuff out, I just run comparative tests on dirt and lakebed practice courses and go by results. But it bugs me not to know what's really going on.

BTW, the X is the worst handling "mud" racer ever. We get a lot of mud when the event organizer drenches the course (watertruck) to cut down on dust. On the really slimy stuff, the car will flat not change direction. I can point the nose where it needs to go, but the car just keeps traveling now sideways but in the original direction. I'm guessing this is the AYC at work. I rotate the car on the slime easy enough, but then I have to counter-steer to "save it". When I counter-steer I suspect the AYC trys to "help" me by adding power to the outside wheel and braking the inside wheel. But while the steering is pointed right to stop over-rotation, I really need the car to cut to the left. And the AYC fights me all the way. Since I can't turn off the AYC (except the brake assist) I guess I need to develop a special driving technique where I don't swing the tail out, thus not needing to counter-steer. Or maybe I need to steer the "wrong" way once sideways in the hope the AYC will now work for me instead of against me. Or maybe it would work to go in a little fast and coast thru the maneuver so there is no power for the AYC to misdirect. Jeez! Hard to practice this since I don't have a mud-track at my disposal. Maybe I should mount up a set of bald tires and hit the parking lots when it rains. But out here in the desert, that could be a long wait.

 

In reference to your "bald tires on a wet parking lot" this is exactly what I experienced a couple weeks ago at a time trials on a VERY large parking lot (corded tires when I was done).

On increasing radius turns, I simply kept my foot in it and let the car correct. If I gave it too much correction, it would want to snap oversteer when it finally got grip. If I turned in to early, it was really bad. I had to make the radius bigger otherwise it was plow city.

On decreasing radius turns, I just had to take my poison and slow down in a straight line. Any attempt to trail brake simply made the car very unstable as it felt like it was trying to figure out what to do (grip, no grip, etc.).

I also had a couple of "code brown" moment heading into a couple turns at high speed and getting no bite from the from wheels (which is something you've talked about being a problem before WAM). I don't have an answer for it though...

 

Yeah, that's a different subject, but I guess I can hijack my own thread. When I get in too deep and panic brake it seems like the brakes aren't working. But my data logger says otherwise. It's showing like .6g braking which is about normal for dirt. So I'm thinking I'm just not an ABS kind of guy. When I jump all over the brakes I want lock-up and hero-rotation. Instead I get a graceful safe straightline stop which overshoots the corner because the driver was late on the pedal. This is my first racecar that has ABS which can't be turned off, so I'm just not used to it. Goofy, in retrospect might you have had the same problem? It's not that you had no-brakes...just normal function of ABS applied too late?

But dammit, it still feels like no brakes.

 

i call it S-awc button because that is what you turn off really. the S-AWC is a combination off all the goodies in the X. Like Sport ABS which helps on acceleration too Or Active Stability Control /ASC/ etc.
For more understanding here is some info:

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/cor...008/20e_04.pdf

 

Okay, I understand. But S-AWC consists of:

ASC (gets turned off)
AYC (only braking gets turned off)
ABS (no effect)
ACD (no effect)

Do you concur? I'll re-read your link now. It's been a while.

 

Sorry for my grammar and English but i'll try my best here.

The ASC and the ABS works together as a "unit" the AYC and the ACD works together as another "unit" . These two "unit" combination - working together gives you a New S-AWC.
When you turn off the ASC /hold down over 5 sec / then basically you will turn off big chunk of the S-AWC . That is why i think it doesn't qualify as a S-AWC anymore.

After you turn off the S_AWC, the Regular ABS still will work as a standard ABS in any other car. But will not help you to maintain the car attitude . Only Prevent from stopping individually or together the wheels.

The AYC has nothing to do with the ABS. The AYC is simply a very advanced Limited slip differential with torque distribution capability.

 

Don't worry about your english -- you're doing fine. You say AYC has nothing to do with ABS. It's just a fancy limited slip differential.

But the owners manual, pg 3-123 says "by pressing down the ASC OFF switch for 3 seconds you can deactivate the ASC and the BRAKING CONTROL OF THE AYC."

So when you say AYC has nothing to do with ABS, I'm not sure what you mean. Braking is a component of AYC and that component only, can be turned off. The mechanical component (left-right power vectoring) of AYC cannot be turned off.

Still, while all of this is interesting, it's probably not getting me a lot closer to my goal of figuring a way around some of my car's frustrating competition limitations. The handbrake may solve the pin-turn problem. There may be nothing I can do except drive more conservatively for the deep ABS problem. So the last problem to overcome will be to figure a way around the electronics on muddy slime. One of the attractions of rallycross is the extreme diversity of track conditions. You gotta take what's thrown at you. I appreciate your help Robevo. If's making me think -- always a good thing.

On Edit: Say Robevo, a question on what happens when you handbrake a moving car. I presume the ACD is unclamped but the car is still in AWD. So if the rear axle is stopped by the handbrake, does that mean the front axle is instantly accelerated to double-speed? That sounds kinda dicey.