the seat didn't break. and neither did the mounting for it. the floor pan itself ripped off the frame rail the entire length of the passenger compartment (from main hoop pad forward)


obviously the arms outside the car was scary, and i would bet window nets will be required next year. not even arm restraints are going to hold your head in when the floor pan rips and your seat moves back like what happened in ours.



i've been rather quiet about analyzing this crash because we are doing a LOT more work then people may believe. the cage has been drawn in solidworks for FEA, and are in contact with other engineers from some of the best race car design firms in the US. i don't like speculation on what may or may not be better (i.e. robevo and his indestructible rally cage with no understand on why it is better). we are drawing his cage as well to see how it fairs in a similar crash based off the loading we can estimate from this crash

for instance, i already know the "dual a pillar brace" wouldn't have helped at all (the failure mode was in bending for the a-pillar in this crash... only a windshield diagonal would have prevented the deformation that happened).

i do know that several things would have helped the b pillar from intruding so far, and i'll provide those ideas later

 

Kevin, will you post the information you guys can extract out of all of this? There's a lot of debate and opinions on the could of, should of's, but I think that data could help the entire racing community here, regardless of what it proves or disproves.

Amongst all of this 'clutter' posted here, we're all still part of the same community, The most important part of all of this is that the racers lived to race another day. We can all learn and build from this in hopes of racing safety. I fear racing will be a thing of the past soon, insurance companies and governments are going to determine what we do for fun.

 

It is very said you keep reffering to me, try to put someone else on your podium.

You dont like the fact the fia approved - designed rally cage is better then your design for rally type of races, based on weight savings, that is fine. But you shouldnt be childish about it . lol
These type of comments for sure will give you more credit

The best i never said the rally cage is indestructible, that would be silly. So dont try to twist my comments ... There is no cage like that.
Cages build for purpose, and for this type of events the Rally cage designs are the best. If you use the proper cage from custom cages etc, they not much heavier or might even just as light as your creation in that car, That is another cookie for this thread.

I wasnt planning to say anything untill you keep pulling my name out for no reason.


Rob

(basically doesnt matter how much we argue, the only thing what matter is hopefully next year you guys will show up with a better caged car, and we never will see to proove itself, that is all matter. )

 

Maybe next year you guys can do a Nascar cage

 

Why don't you fully explain HOW it's better instead of just saying that it is?

I refuse to believe anything I hear online without factual evidence, I take it with a grain of salt. And please don't spit out a bunch of anecdotal or assumptive evidence, it's useless. This would also require you to physically examine the car in person and take notes on the design. If you haven't done that, you shouldn't be talking.

The way you're talking is more childish than anyone else.

 

Not sure how much engineering really goes into cages. A lot of the tube placement looks like experience because from an engineering perspective, it mostly looks like redundancy. Sure an engineer might say the exact angles the tubes need to be to get the maximum stiffness out of it for chassis rigidity reasons, but I'm betting a very experienced designers says "you need to put a tube in this area to protect from ______" and the engineer simply accommodates that experience.

As far as the floor pan ripping up, that happens to be one such feature I've seen incorperated into the cage. It's not uncommon to have a door sill tube that a tubular seat mount ties into along with the floor pan and sometimes a lower bar in the main hoop. This feature makes a tubular structure that makes the seat, harness and cage a complete system. Even it the floor is penetrated, this tubular system still keeps the harness and seat working like it is supposed to.

Either way, everybody came out of this alive in the worst possible situation so it wasn’t a complete failure. That was a HUGE impact with lots of energy. ANY cage would have suffered sever damage. That wreck likely had a lot more energy in it then any of the videos that were posted.

 

ok rob, in one word (yes or no), do you believe if you drove your FIA spec rally car off this cliff at 70mph, it free falls 100ft onto the roof and rolls 14 times over a distance of 400ft, that you and your co driver will be unhurt, and the cage will be completely intact?





for everyone else who cares about improving things and making cages safer and stronger, once we have results, we will be posting them up for people to see. we have a LOT of great ideas coming from this... and have already talked to the pikes peak safety director, and will be talking to NASA to see if they are open to change some of their odd cage rules as well.

 

no. Also the cage should bend around you, absorb the impact. and keep the car together as much as possible.


and that is a good news

 

Thanks for the educated opinion.
That is all been done already...
That is why we have car specific roll cages and designs aproved by FIA. Welcome in racing
They even say what you can, and what you cant cut out from the car to keep the body rigidity up for the tasks.
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/Pages/Introduction.aspx
http://www.ralliart.com/GRN/

The rally cages are desingned for this type of enviroment specially. (hill climbs basically one rally stage)
In a rally 1000's of engeniers and decades of testing and improving behind those cages.
If you think Kevin is the only one who try to make things better,, then you wrong. There is a reason why we have FIA approved cages for open road races , and why others will not qualify for that. That is your answere...
That is a whole other thing why organizations let people run with lesser cages.
Last week i runned a hill climb with cars without cage at all...
So as it is today that is the safest design so far for similar races to rally are the rally cage design, because they tested and prooven over other cages by decades of racing in these type of eviroments.
That is a whole another thing you can run without them races etc. but that is not a point here.



Why you guys dont proove your case first, like Kevin cage is better then a FIA aproved roll cage which is specifically designed for an EVO?

It is actually sad we have to even discuss this on the race forum... By the way do you race, hill climb or rally by any chance?

 

the best part no one i think ever said it is a complete failure... I actually said the job was done properly since welds didnt cracked - bars didnt broke etc.
WE only said at the very beginning after Dave pointed out, some additional bar would not hurt.
That is where this started.

I dont think anyone argues really what the builder thinks ( that is his own deal), we all argue for future reference for future hill climb builds, since life is not so generous so many times in a row... And couple of lbs doest worth gambling.

 

You're assuming that an extensive analysis has already been completed.
This proves nothing. All you're doing is glorifying the strength of a rally cage. Where's the comparison?
begging the question
You're avoiding the question, nothing has been mentioned about the cage you're comparing this to. You're also assuming that you already know everything you need to make a valid comparison.
Have you seen the cage in person and thoroughly inspected it?
Do you know what type of metal was used?
Do you know any of the properties associated with that metal? (hardness, specific gravity, plasticity, ductility, elastic deformation, compressive strength) these are things that an engineer would know.

have you even compared the two cages in strength or are you just assuming that it's largely inferior?

Yes I know that rally cages have evolved over many years to become what they are today. However, that doesn't prove your point. You're assuming that they're better just because a lot of time has been spent on them. Of course rally cages do what they're supposed to, that is undisputed. I have great respect for the amount of time and effort that was put into rally cages to make them what they are today. What I don't see is a comparison or engineering analysis that says one is better than the other. I'm sure that things learned from the past have been applied to the cage.

You're basically saying that rally cages are better because they are better.

Complex question
Once again, you're assuming things. Have you compared both cages with a thorough engineering analysis?

This seems to be an appeal to authority. Your experience in racing doesn't magically make me believe what you're saying. You have to PROVE things if you're going to make statements.

I'll add emoticons for effect

Kevin said he and many others are going to do an extensive analysis of the car. Until then, there is no way to know.

 

You guys make it sound like there is or ever was, high level testing of roll cages going on from NASA, SCCA, Pikes peak, etc (other then the FIA).

My biggest suggestion is to get involved in putting on races and helping the people that put on events. You will learn alot!

There is a reason people all over the world follow FIA rules.http://www.fiainstitute.com/research...ages/home.aspx

 

The people dont know, what they dont know are the most dangerous people.

if in a motorsport section there is an explanation need why you reffer and what is the FIA means, it is already bad

 

I plan to use the custom cages fia chromemoly cage in my T/A build. I also plan to eventually get the car to pikes peak.

Cheap for what it is like AUD $2500 delivered ready to weld and quantities calculated to meet FIA approval.

Nothing is more important than safety, no horsepower not weight, not aerodynamics. Because without safety there is either no car or no you ,thus the rest becomes irrelevant....

 

I'm not asking you to explain anything about FIA. I'm asking you to share information about the car that you obviously don't have. The car that you're making massive assumptions about with even seeing it in person. If you don't have data to back up what you say, don't say it.

If you had the information, you would use it. Instead, you change the subject and avoid the question.

Do you really think that weight savings have never been discussed in rally cages?