You can't have both, because it's the relative amounts of roll resistance from bars that causes tripodding.

 

^What do you mean you can't have both? I'm not questioning in a negative manor but rather just don't understand what you are saying...

 

(Yeah, that was pretty opaque, wasn't it?) What I meant was that you can't both have a big front bar to keep the inside rear down and have a big rear bar to keep the inside front down. If both bars are big, you actually end up lifting both inside wheels. Maybe not off the ground, but neither is being "held down" by the bar at the opposite end. The better way to think about bars is not that a big bar holds the inside at the opposite end down; rather, a small bar allows the inside at the same end stay down. This is why there are folks out there that always stay with thin bars, getting their roll resistance from springs, instead.

The other argument against bars is that they can greatly upset the car if you like running over inside-of-turn rubblestrips. And, yet, they give you twice the resistance to roll as to single-wheel bump.

 

Thank you for clarifying. When it comes to suspension setups there seem to be varying ideologies rather than a one size fits all solution. The way I see it, on a bumpy track having softer rates and stiffer bars may be the faster approach and on a smooth track stiffer rates and softer bars would be better.

Since my car is still a dd I would prefer to go stiffer with bars than springs but Im also quite young and a harsh ride hasnt got to me yet.

Im still curious as to if anyone has tried to get more stiffness in the front without upping the bar size but by modifying the FSB and using an adjustable bracket? There is a thread floating around here recently where someone was trying to compile the increased stiffness of sways.

I'd really like to try that approach out and keep my RSB on the softest setting as I have it now. What I have found so far is with my DFV's on 8K/10K springs the FSB drilled and my Perrin 25mm RSB on full soft the front is still too soft.

I dont think just adding an adjustable bracket is going to give me enough stiffness up front but potentially that combined with putting my 10K springs up front and getting some 12K for the rear might be just the ticket.

 

If nothing else, I would highly encourage you to get a Cusco adjustable bracket for the front, not just because different settings are good, but because back-to-back runs at different settings will teach you ten times as much as chatting with blow-hards like me on the web. Actual experience is worth much more than an abstract understanding of the math. And I say that as someone who adores math.

As to running 10/12 ... I wouldn't. You can't dial back springs, so you'd have 12k rears all the time and that can be brutal, even with Ohlins. I'd stop at 10/10 or lower if it's a daily driver and use adjustable bars for the rest.

 

Thought this would be a good time to mention that Ciro Racing is coming out with new adjustable FSB mounts. They offer the most adjustment range and stiffest settings compared to any other bracket.

- For racers, the brackets also allow quick adjustment from both or ONE side. For AX, you can adjust the car's balance in minutes, between runs, in grid. Quick adjustment is valuable for changing weather conditions, different driving styles, tire condition, course type, etc, or anytime you need to eek out those last few tenths of a second.
- No need to lengthen or shorten the endlinks for different settings, due to a unique design feature.
- Stock endlinks can be used on the initial 3 settings.
- Adjustable endlinks will be offered to take advantage of the stiffest settings, and to dial out any unwanted preload.

We're on the 3rd generation of the FSB bracket design. Prototypes are out in the field now for final testing.

Rick

 

How will that work? The Cusco bracket already creates angles that are pushing the limits. How can you move the pick-up on the lower LCA any further in or out?

 

Well there's the rub. And what we spent a decent amount of CAD time on. As i mentioned above, we use different hardware/spacers for the endlinks to make it work.

 

Ah, I guess if you added a spacer to move the effective attachment point on the bar inwards or outwards, you could get away with a wider bracket than Cusco's. But, man, that had better be some nice hardware, given the forces and leverage involved.

The reason that I'm so interested in this is that I'd love to have more adjustability to the front bar. Rear bars take ten minutes to swap, so who cares? Front bars ... quite a bit more time and effort, plus the car needs to be on a lift. I switch back and forth from pavement to gravel, but don't have a lift. I'd love a bar that could be doubled (or halved) in a few extra minutes while swapping wheels.

 

Great to see some worthwhile suspension conversation...!

 

Thanks for your continued advice/ feedback. I will certainly be picking up an adjustable FSB bracket. I'm not sure it'll be able to give my the roll resistance I'm after but it will certainly help. Ultimately I will have to test it myself and see if it works for me. After all the math may some one thing but the reality of it may be something different.

I had a nice conversation with Rick a couple weeks ago regarding his brackets so the plan is to pick up a set after they are done with their testing. I'm done racing for the year so I have time anyway.

As to the spring rates I'm not too concerned that I will kill the ride. I've run on KYB's Bilsteins, Bilsteins with various springs most recently being the Robispec springs and now my Ohlins on 8K/10K and the car rides so nicely with the current rates. I was expecting it to feel a lot stiffer but it really doesnt. I dont foresee bumping up 2K to be a game changer and kill the ride but I do appreciate your feedback and concern. You may be spot on but ultimately everyones tolerances are different and currently I've got some room to go stiffer in my book.

 

^ Put your tires to good use at CTD over the weekend. Thanks again brotha!

 

awesome damn thread

 

Glad to hear bud! Too bad you had to pay me for them since I pwned your *** at Warminster Hopefully we'll cross paths in the future once I sack up and actually start tracking the car instead of dodging cones.

 

Lemme know when you're ready to take your skirt off and you need my professional instructing help.