1-Way Front LSD Options
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kyoo (Dec 8, 2020)
Dec 8, 2020, 01:55 PM
#62
Here is the translated version of ATS oil page: https://translate.google.com/transla...x-gear-oil.php
obviously, i do not want to use some unknown oil in our already sensitive t-cases. I did a test and red line's gl5 is the only oil i would trust outside of diaqueen due to the boron and phos content. however, i think it's the next step they want me to take, i doubt it will hurt to just do the break-in on it. otherwise, it seems like it will be a bit of a fight to get them to give me softer preload springs or anything of that nature. they claim their high preload is a feature and not a bug but i'm not so sure - if it needs high preload to achieve good lockup, that would indicate to me the friction on their carbon chips may not be ideal. ats usa also indicated their may be multiple preload springs in there, and that i can pull them, but said i should confirm with ats japan.
i've separately been trying to reach jon@TRE, calls, emails, messages but haven't gotten a hold of him yet. he's a dealer for ATS, and I'm confident he will have a nice solution. he was able to do his thing on my Cusco rear diff and got it silent without losing any lockup.
fwiw, someone else i know did say the diff shares fluid with the trans, but that the t-case fluid is what bathes the clutch packs in the diff. not sure entirely about that, which is why i was looking for a diagram of how everything went together.
Dec 8, 2020, 02:59 PM
#63
thanks. it seems before i move forward with ats, they want me to try their gear oil first.
obviously, i do not want to use some unknown oil in our already sensitive t-cases. I did a test and red line's gl5 is the only oil i would trust outside of diaqueen due to the boron and phos content. however, i think it's the next step they want me to take, i doubt it will hurt to just do the break-in on it. otherwise, it seems like it will be a bit of a fight to get them to give me softer preload springs or anything of that nature. they claim their high preload is a feature and not a bug but i'm not so sure - if it needs high preload to achieve good lockup, that would indicate to me the friction on their carbon chips may not be ideal. ats usa also indicated their may be multiple preload springs in there, and that i can pull them, but said i should confirm with ats japan.
i've separately been trying to reach jon@TRE, calls, emails, messages but haven't gotten a hold of him yet. he's a dealer for ATS, and I'm confident he will have a nice solution. he was able to do his thing on my Cusco rear diff and got it silent without losing any lockup.
fwiw, someone else i know did say the diff shares fluid with the trans, but that the t-case fluid is what bathes the clutch packs in the diff. not sure entirely about that, which is why i was looking for a diagram of how everything went together.
obviously, i do not want to use some unknown oil in our already sensitive t-cases. I did a test and red line's gl5 is the only oil i would trust outside of diaqueen due to the boron and phos content. however, i think it's the next step they want me to take, i doubt it will hurt to just do the break-in on it. otherwise, it seems like it will be a bit of a fight to get them to give me softer preload springs or anything of that nature. they claim their high preload is a feature and not a bug but i'm not so sure - if it needs high preload to achieve good lockup, that would indicate to me the friction on their carbon chips may not be ideal. ats usa also indicated their may be multiple preload springs in there, and that i can pull them, but said i should confirm with ats japan.
i've separately been trying to reach jon@TRE, calls, emails, messages but haven't gotten a hold of him yet. he's a dealer for ATS, and I'm confident he will have a nice solution. he was able to do his thing on my Cusco rear diff and got it silent without losing any lockup.
fwiw, someone else i know did say the diff shares fluid with the trans, but that the t-case fluid is what bathes the clutch packs in the diff. not sure entirely about that, which is why i was looking for a diagram of how everything went together.
Dec 8, 2020, 03:31 PM
#66
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
thanks. it seems before i move forward with ats, they want me to try their gear oil first.
obviously, i do not want to use some unknown oil in our already sensitive t-cases. I did a test and red line's gl5 is the only oil i would trust outside of diaqueen due to the boron and phos content. however, i think it's the next step they want me to take, i doubt it will hurt to just do the break-in on it. otherwise, it seems like it will be a bit of a fight to get them to give me softer preload springs or anything of that nature. they claim their high preload is a feature and not a bug but i'm not so sure - if it needs high preload to achieve good lockup, that would indicate to me the friction on their carbon chips may not be ideal. ats usa also indicated their may be multiple preload springs in there, and that i can pull them, but said i should confirm with ats japan.
i've separately been trying to reach jon@TRE, calls, emails, messages but haven't gotten a hold of him yet. he's a dealer for ATS, and I'm confident he will have a nice solution. he was able to do his thing on my Cusco rear diff and got it silent without losing any lockup.
fwiw, someone else i know did say the diff shares fluid with the trans, but that the t-case fluid is what bathes the clutch packs in the diff. not sure entirely about that, which is why i was looking for a diagram of how everything went together.
obviously, i do not want to use some unknown oil in our already sensitive t-cases. I did a test and red line's gl5 is the only oil i would trust outside of diaqueen due to the boron and phos content. however, i think it's the next step they want me to take, i doubt it will hurt to just do the break-in on it. otherwise, it seems like it will be a bit of a fight to get them to give me softer preload springs or anything of that nature. they claim their high preload is a feature and not a bug but i'm not so sure - if it needs high preload to achieve good lockup, that would indicate to me the friction on their carbon chips may not be ideal. ats usa also indicated their may be multiple preload springs in there, and that i can pull them, but said i should confirm with ats japan.
i've separately been trying to reach jon@TRE, calls, emails, messages but haven't gotten a hold of him yet. he's a dealer for ATS, and I'm confident he will have a nice solution. he was able to do his thing on my Cusco rear diff and got it silent without losing any lockup.
fwiw, someone else i know did say the diff shares fluid with the trans, but that the t-case fluid is what bathes the clutch packs in the diff. not sure entirely about that, which is why i was looking for a diagram of how everything went together.
The only clutches that are bathed in the tcase's fluid are the ACD clutches. which are not inside the "egg".
The EvoX does not work like this. But we are NOT talking about an EvoX
You're either going to have to change the diff setup, or IMO sid send it back to ATS sinced apparently they don't even know how the damn thing is lubricated. Seriously, WAFJ...
The following 2 users liked this post by LetsGetThisDone:
DontStopMe (Dec 8, 2020),
kyoo (Dec 8, 2020)
Dec 8, 2020, 06:56 PM
#67
Evolved Member
Nope, thats wrong. The T-case R&P has its fluid sealed separate from the housing of the front diff. I've taken mine apart a few times but I'm drawing blank if the ACD shares fluid with the T-case not the trans. I think the ACD was T-case fluid though based on my recollection.
Dec 8, 2020, 09:05 PM
#68
ATS replied to me directly, and I am not going to bother posting all of what they said, but here is part of it:
General question: aside from some stability, why can't aggressive ramp angles and spider gear (or activation or deactivation of clutch plates) achieve as much lockup as desired? i.e., Dallas commented that he uses minimal preload on the front diff with 60% or 80% of plates. why don't I, as I've wanted to, minimize preload and let the torque on the ramp angles handle most of the lock up? I wanted a 1-way diff for this very reason, so I can be relatively open on turn-in in the front. Obviously I can have some preload but 30-40kgm.. is excessive. they can get away with it and be silent in the rear, but clearly not with GL4 fluid in the front.
can someone confirm with me that 30-40kgm is as much as i think it is?
If the rear LSD does not make noise, it is not an oil issue.
We think there is noise because the initial torque is high. The initial torque of the front LSD is 30-40kgm and the rear is 30kgm.
Like company C, if you dislike noise and lower the initial torque, you can avoid the noise but can’t update the time. ATS carbon LSD is valuable in that it does not understeer even when given high initial torque. The high initial torque brings a decisive level up to driving.
You should believe in ATS technology and first experience driving with a high initial torque LSD.
We think there is noise because the initial torque is high. The initial torque of the front LSD is 30-40kgm and the rear is 30kgm.
Like company C, if you dislike noise and lower the initial torque, you can avoid the noise but can’t update the time. ATS carbon LSD is valuable in that it does not understeer even when given high initial torque. The high initial torque brings a decisive level up to driving.
You should believe in ATS technology and first experience driving with a high initial torque LSD.
can someone confirm with me that 30-40kgm is as much as i think it is?
Last edited by kyoo; Dec 8, 2020 at 09:17 PM.
Dec 8, 2020, 09:38 PM
#69
Uhh, I dont know who you're talking to but their out of their mind. 30 kg-m is 216 ft-lb. That would be an absolutely insane preload. For reference my super duper crazy rear gymkhana rear diff is about 90 ft-lbs and front is about 30. Maybe he got his units mixed up but thats a huge bit of error then.
Also, the rear diff not making noise is 10000% irrelevant to the front diff because the rear has the non-NS gear oil in it vs front being lubed by MT90. So I fully agree with Sean that they just dont know wtf they're talking about with this particular platform.
Accept it as is, or get a wavetrac if you want silent. Sorry, but this is just the nature of clutch diffs.
Also, the rear diff not making noise is 10000% irrelevant to the front diff because the rear has the non-NS gear oil in it vs front being lubed by MT90. So I fully agree with Sean that they just dont know wtf they're talking about with this particular platform.
Accept it as is, or get a wavetrac if you want silent. Sorry, but this is just the nature of clutch diffs.
Dec 9, 2020, 06:45 AM
#70
at this point, this is really just for people to be aware - they are insisting that evos in japan use GL5 in their transmissions (not the NS version), and that I should be too. I can't even
i'm goign to switch to GL5 NS to appease them somewhat, and they said they will let me buy 4 flat plates to swap the cone springs to e decrease the preload.
this thread was a decent read re: my question about preload vs ramp angles (http://www.fsae.com/forums/showthrea...ential-Preload)
The transfer hypoid gear wears out the fastest so you should pay the utmost attention to lubrication here. Also we can’t imagine how much the carbon chip of carbon LSD will be consumed by GL4.
There is a risk of damage to LSD clutch plate if you drive in sports while generating such noise. You should change to ATS GL5 as soon as possible. There are differences in the additives contained in oil depending on the manufacture.
In addition to grades and viscosities such as GL5, the type and amount of this additive has a significant impact on LSD. Fortunately it has been investigated in Japan that carbon LSD is compatible with many oils (no noise is generated). Your GL4oil which produces noise beyond its ATS experience should be discontinued.
There is a risk of damage to LSD clutch plate if you drive in sports while generating such noise. You should change to ATS GL5 as soon as possible. There are differences in the additives contained in oil depending on the manufacture.
In addition to grades and viscosities such as GL5, the type and amount of this additive has a significant impact on LSD. Fortunately it has been investigated in Japan that carbon LSD is compatible with many oils (no noise is generated). Your GL4oil which produces noise beyond its ATS experience should be discontinued.
this thread was a decent read re: my question about preload vs ramp angles (http://www.fsae.com/forums/showthrea...ential-Preload)
Last edited by kyoo; Dec 9, 2020 at 07:31 AM.
Dec 9, 2020, 07:59 AM
#73
speaking of jon, i've been trying to reach him and will keep trying. he is an ATS dealer, I assume he's gotta have some knowledge or awareness on the matter
in addition to RL 75w90 NS, I will also try motul's 75w90 GL4/5 gear 300 (not the LS version). i should be willing to try some stuff on my end. not the ATS 85w90 they want me to use though, i assume it's going to have friction modifiers in it.
Dec 9, 2020, 08:33 AM
#75
i laid all of that out for them, how the synchros don't want friction modifier, etc.
speaking of jon, i've been trying to reach him and will keep trying. he is an ATS dealer, I assume he's gotta have some knowledge or awareness on the matter
in addition to RL 75w90 NS, I will also try motul's 75w90 GL4/5 gear 300 (not the LS version). i should be willing to try some stuff on my end. not the ATS 85w90 they want me to use though, i assume it's going to have friction modifiers in it.
speaking of jon, i've been trying to reach him and will keep trying. he is an ATS dealer, I assume he's gotta have some knowledge or awareness on the matter
in addition to RL 75w90 NS, I will also try motul's 75w90 GL4/5 gear 300 (not the LS version). i should be willing to try some stuff on my end. not the ATS 85w90 they want me to use though, i assume it's going to have friction modifiers in it.
The following users liked this post:
kyoo (Dec 9, 2020)