omfg not this guy AGAIN why cant he just give it up already?

 

[SARCASM]

Wow, that's incredibly productive and constructive.

[END SARCASM]

If you don't have anything on-topic or meaningful to say, please don't post. This forum is for feedback and suggestions, not bashing your fellow members.

 

..its like when u see a gov. official come to ur city..they roll up in super gas guzzlin suburbans/excursions

 

The impound I believe, but not the fine. There are other places (CA notably) that have some amount of policing on emissions but the penalties are trivial compared to those of street racing.

 

I actually thought about this some time back as well. I never posted it (that I can remember anyway) though because of the reasons mentioned above. Personally I don't think I could, in good conscience, drive a car without a cat, knowing full well that a high flow cat would significantly reduce emissions while causing barely any more of a hinderence. That being said, I may chime in with my opinion when I read about people boasting on the glories of their cat deletes, however I don't feel it's my place, or EvolutionM's place, to tell people they can't talk about it.

Other than that, I think Jeff covered everything rather well. Also some other monkeys filled out any gaps that he didn't mention.

 

It does make sense that you don't want to block this from being discussed. The only person that has given an irrefutable statement against it is Charles, because we are an international site there is no basis for barring the discussion since it's not illegal everywhere.

I still don't see how an illegal activity can be deemed OK just because it is widely accepted as OK. I can compare it to street racing because both are illegal and both are detrimental to the general public. One can end in immediate death for people, one can kill people slowly. The only difference is the timeline.

I agree, we don't want the site to police ethics. you say that, yet we don't allow street racing discussions. as long as street races aren't being organized here the site isn't promoting anything, and the discussions are not illegal. someone mentioned freedom of speech, although that's not an issue because this is a private site it does mean that it's not illegal to discuss it, be it on a publicly or privately owned forum. to say discussion of street racing is barred because it is illegal (and since this is an international site I will venture a guess to say these laws don't exist in all the land) but discussions of removing your cat isn't barred because it involves ethics sounds like something Bush would say. it just doesn't support the argument.

I'm not trying to be the conversation/conservation **** or something, but I think everyone needs to reevaluate their priorities. we ban street racing discussion, we ban pornographic images, but we allow test pipe discussion. seems to me like the first two have more to do with liability to the site than ethics, but I doubt that **** would be banned if ethics weren't taken into account. there are lot's of other forums that allow both of these other types of discussions with no criminal liability(or so it seems publicly) I thought the whole point of EvoM was the fact that you guys hold the site to a higher standard?

It's more than opinion, Hobie, it's the law in our country. just like street racing is illegal, running with no cat is illegal. it's not subjective, like changing your muffler, it's federally mandated. I'm not talking about killing discussions such as "can my evo beat a 'vette with xx done to it" or "if I run a test pipe what can I expect to gain" I am trying to dissuade you from allowing "I smoked this little vtec last night on the way home" or "I gutted my cat and gained 15WHP." There is a striking similarity to these issues, and I would venture a second guess (yes, that's in one thread) and say that the decision to ban street racing discussions met some of the same resistance as this discussion has. Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean it belongs on a reputable site such as this. It's not about being overbearing, it's about setting the proper example and not promoting things that are detrimental to the sites image. we don't want to be known as a **** infested group of street racers, so why would we want to be known as the clean and safe place that allows clouds of smog to linger over the address bar?

discussion of any topic online is completely free and clear, as long as you don't promote it as a site you aren't liable for what non-paying members discuss. you chose to further limit your liability as a site by not allowing **** or street racing, add polluting on purpose to the list please. It won't be any more difficult to police than the **** or street racing, maybe easier because everyone knows how popular **** and street racing are, and the members will have their work arounds (such as "the other day on the track I..." and the pm for **** in OT) like they always have. It will just be known that EvoM cares just like they always have and are leading the field in the ever changing attitudes towards pollution.

 

I'd like to see that happen. what fuel are you burning? you do realize we are speaking of gasoline powered engines right? the kind of gasoline that releases chemicals into the air when burned?

EDIT: before you get a chance to rebut, it's obvious a really lean burn will be capable of passing an emissions test. the whole issue here isn't whether or not you can pass emissions, it's the fact that you should do your part. A car with a test pipe may very well pass at idle, but the emissions at normal driving conditions will be well above tolerable limits, and therefor your sniffer test doesn't mean squat. the cat works best at higher temperatures as well


This is extremely shortsighted, so much so you must have missed the part when they tell you it takes one person to start change in school huh? you even hear of Rosa Parks, or Martin Luther King? One person convinces the masses, and the masses create the change. That's how it works in the real world anyway, not sure where you are from...

They don't have emissions testing in your state so it's ok to break a federal law? what your line of reasoning there is, but when you get arrested and tell a judge that you didn't know be prepared to hear his ignorance of the law spiel, they all have one. not to say you are going to get arrested for not running a cat, I think that's quite a few more years in the future, but it does illustrate my point effectively enough.
two things here, street racing is not a controversial issue, it's plain idiocy. and no, it's not illegal to talk about it, but this isn't your soapbox to spew forth what you please it's evolutionm.net, and they make the rules. I am trying to change one of those rules to better serve the greater good. When you die I will be first in line pal.

wrong again, why do you think we have ozone warning on the news? they recommend old people and those with respiratory problems stay inside. pollution does kill people, just much more slowly. we haven't even begun to feel the effects of what China is doing to our environment right now, and as a whole tend to only think of the things that directly relate to us as individuals. that is why I am encountering so much opposition to this, not because it's a bad thing, but because everyone is thinking only about themselves and how this would affect them. think about how it would affect the world if all 40 something thousand members of EvoM decided not to go to work one day. it probably wouldn't even get noticed, we are a tiny little spec of a website compared to the population, but if you always think that way nothing ever gets done or changes.

I love you too, I just can't figure out how you can type with that thing up... NM

this is part of the problem. while I am not here to discuss global warming I will say that there are other countries that set a much better example than the US in this regard. hence me trying to change the ideas of the people within my reach. you making fun of this fact just points out the obvious flaw in your reasoning. you think it's amusing for our government to so blatantly disregard the environment, yet you do so yourself???

 

Yes -- it is illegal (Federal EPA law applicable to all states) to remove, bypass, or alter the emissions system in any way and is subject to a fine. But that's not the point right? The point was....

Good point and well taken. That's why I have this great story that I'd like to share sometime about a friendly little competition I once had against a BMW M3.. on a closed course I 'd like to add - (wink wink) - because road racing is illegal. It's a good thing noone on here does it. I can tell you all about it because it wasn't on a public road.

I would also not speak of altering emissions control systems for highway use. Particularly when it can carry heavy fine$. However, Its more than fine to discuss the affects of removing or bypassing emissions controls for activities not done on public roads - such as track events, autocross and the like - right?

It's "assumed" that after such activities the car will be returned to its OEM configuration before returning to the public roads. That we can talk about.

So.. who else here runs "catless" on the track or other offroad events (nudge nudge).

Problem solved.

 

that's exactly my point. If people are gonna do it, they are gonna do it. I have stated as much in a rebuttal before. you are proving my point that it is able to be moderated in the same fashion street racing is. you can't stop it, but you can let the site users know that it is not supposed to take place.

 

Dan, I think you're missing one point. The emissions delta of the Evo with and without a catalytic converter is not that significant. A larger and meaningful delta would be an Evo to a bicycle. The laws were written when engines rarely burned fuel completely and emissions were much higher (I believe about 20-30x higher, but I'd have to do some research to verify that). Removing your cat might yield a 25% increase. A lot of other things - driving fast being a prime example - greatly increase the emissions profile of a car. Should we enforce that too?

80210's post summed it up nicely - this is an ethical decision more than anything. You and a lot of other people made a decision that removing your catalytic converter is an unethical thing to do in that it harms everyone and everything around you (even if only a little bit) but yields a slight gain for yourself. Some people don't care about that; they live in a bubble where their personal gain is all that matters.

I realize this is an important issue to you. Unfortunately, we (the staff) have bigger fish to fry than a single law being broken by some users.

 

Trust me, a 2.0 four banger's emmissions are nothing compared to what we have already done and are currently doing to our ozone! Guys overseas do not have emmissions. We do. Is that fair? So we are doing our part to clean up the air and they are just trashing it? Either way, using Immanuel Kant's philosophy on ethics, it would not be ethical if everyone in the world ran catless. That point cannot be refuted. The main point here is that you're asking to ban talk about cat delete pipes. That's a little over the top. If we ban talk of these, then we have to ban talk of intakes that are not CARB exempt. And leaded gasoline. How about the discussions on warranties and ethics. If you dig deep enough, every single thread on this forum can be ethically and morally questioned. Street racing puts lives in direct risk. Running catless does not. The ozone theory is just that... A Theory!

Let's bring up the fact that old cars did not have catalytic converters on them and ran leaded gasoline. Is it unethical for guys to drive these classics and antique cars??? Of course not. So why should they be allowed to pollute and us have to be strictly monitored? In the next county below me (In PA), there are no emmissions tests. Anyone running catless down there is not breaking the law. Why should it matter to the rest of us then? Guys are allowed by law to drive on private roads without cats! Until there is some universal law regulating polution, I am not concerned. I'll plant a tree every year, instead.

I do understand and agree with some of your points though. It's just overkill considering when I sit in traffic behind an 18 wheeler diesel, I cannot breathe! He's polluting 25 times the amount of CO2, Nitrogen oxides, and hydrocarbons than someone in a small 2.0 liter four cylinder engine running catless would. And how about driving a large pickup truck??? Their emmissions as well are higher with cats than ours are withouts cats. All in all, who cares who's running catless? Compared to what other countries are doing, what our country has done, etc, it doesn't really make a difference with a few cars running catless.

A final point is this. A catalytic converter does not reduce pollution to zero. Is it unethical to drive a car even with a cat knowing that you're polluting the environment and depleting the ozone layer? Either way, it's a lose lose situation. Pollution is a problem. I don't think we need to get too carried away with it though. Like I said, I plant trees, use pumps instead of aerosols, use paper and not styrofoam, etc. I'll make it up for it by running a test pipe.

I would truly like to see the differences in NOX's, CO's, and HC's between cats and no cats on our vehicles. Has anyone smogged their car yet with either or? I highly doubt it's as big of a deal as you think it is.

 

The test pipe discussion is actually somewhat pertinent to the site, though. This site is for owners of the Evolution. Modification and tuning is part of that.

I do see your point. I personally don't drive cars that don't have at least one cat (not counting my Camaro). In the end, though, it's the decision of the site owner. We've banned street racing threads since Mark owned the site. Neither Mark nor Ali felt the need to ban test pipe threads. Personally, I accept that it is currently Ali's decision. It is his site, he can run it how he wants. I just assume he disagrees with you on this matter.

 

I accept the decision as well, I am just trying to change his outlook. A lot of this has to do with peoples opinions, but that's the whole point of pushing an unpopular idea. there really is no logical reason why everyone is fighting so fervently against the idea of doing your part, except that it affects them directly maybe I will try again in five more years... attitudes towards pollution should be different then.

 

Well we appreciate your suggestion/comments, at this time there will be no change to our policy regarding this subject.

Thank you everyone for your comments, however since this matter is closed, I am going to close the thread