Why is it people can flame each other all day long with little to no moderation and I make a humorous statement pointed to nobody in particular and it gets deleted? I figured anyone else loosing brain cells reading flame wars might at least get a smile or two out of them if NOTHING else...



EDIT:

Dear Lucky,
Your post was one of several deleted. And based upon the subject of this thread, probably not the last. Thanks.

Speedlimit...

 

Ohh, now it makes sense, I kept seeing all these quotes from other people's posts that I didn't even see in the thread, I figured that they must have gotten deleted or something but oh well

 

man I never recall people being so pissy in cali...

 

Yeah get used to it, they gotta protect their boy!

 

OK, I got the dyno sheets from your XS dyno run. I also spoke with several people at XS that were there during the run, as well.

1. Uncorrected chart which does not have atmospheric corrections applied.




2. Corrected chart that shows the atmospheric correction applied. Note the ambient air temperature reading of 139.7 degrees F. When asked about this "abnormally" high ambient air temperature, I was given the following information........

The second sheet titled "vishnu corrected" shows the 563whp run with the 139.7 deg air temperature. The first run titled "uncorrected" shows the uncorrected hp reading of 497whp at over 2.1kg/cm2 of boost around 6000rpm. This means they could very possibly be running 2.3-2.4kgs of boost since the XS dyno only reads up to 2.1kg.

FWIW, the XS dyno has an external air temp sensor that you are supposed to place within 12 inches from the air filter. This is how the SAE (society of automotive engineers) derives their atmoshperic compensation to obtain the standard SAE Horsepower numbers. To get a 139.7 deg air temperature reading, you would really have to either put the air temp sensor on the radiator or near the exhaust or something like that. XS always keep the sensor around the air filter and out of the engine compartment to get consistent realistic numbers.




I'm not trying to stir up a big storm, I'm just trying to make sure we are all comparing apples to apples when talking about 563whp at XS compared to the other cars that were dyno'd there the previous week. Now, I might be way off base here, but I think it is all of our responsibility to make sure the information shared on this site is as accurate and informative as possible. And, I am not making any claims about Shiv's talents as a tuner, or the quality of Vishnu's products, as they are both top notch. I am just a little frustrated when people start making posts responding to whp claims, when they don't have all the information.

 

Ouch, sounds like you just lost your dyno race. Oh, that's right, we don't race dynos.

 

Hmmm.

 

Scott,

So you are supposed to keep the air inlet temp sensor out of the engine compartment? I don't agree. Neither does SAE. It's supposed to go in the intake box's duct (if retained) or right next to the air filter. The intake temp sensor is a long flexible thermocouple, not a wall-mounted thermometer. It is designed to measure intake air temp, not ambient temp (that is another separate input which is also used to calculate atmos correction (at least on the dynos we've used).

It is completely normal for intake temps to read 10-15 deg. above ambient from what I've seen from my few thousand hours of dyno testing. So I agree that 40 deg. above ambient may be too high. But I haven't used that particular dyno before so I can't offer any explanation beyond that.

So, the question is, what do you feel the accurate atmosphere correction is for a 110 deg inlet temp (typical for a 95-100F day)? I can tell you that on our dyno, atmos corretion would be in the 1.05-1.07 range. Doesn't make for good dyno queen bench racing but what the heck, that's what the internet is for, right?

Regards,
shiv

 

For a car with an intercooler, which has much more of an affect on the air temperature being ingested by the engine than the temp of the air at the air filter, I would expect that it would be best to put the temp sensor in front of the intercooler, so you can read them temperature of the air cooling down the heat exchanger.

However, if you are working with a turbo that is maxxed out, the area of the turbo inlet really becomes the limiter, so the temperature of the intake air can have a larger affect on performance. In other words, the intake air temp directly affects the density of the air entering the compressor inlet. If the turbo compressor is maxed out, there is really only so many molecules of air that can fit through a compressor inlet at once at a given temperature and pressure. Once you hit that limit, it doesn't matter if you spin the turbo faster or not, and it doesn't really matter if you can cool the air down after the turbo since there is a volumetric issue before the heat exchanger. You won't get any more mass airflow out of the turbo. Considering the turbo being run on the Vishnu car, I wouldn't expect this to be an issue, however. My car? Yes!

This is not to say that intake air temp won't have an affect on power. Of course it will. But so long as the turbo is not maxxed out, the intercooler and boost controller (if sourced AFTER the intercooler) will compensate somewhat.

Neither of these locations is perfect, but I'd be suspect of a 139F temperature correcting power and torque on a turbocharged and intercooled car in any case. These correction factors don't affect all cars in the same way.

 

Oh my god....stop. Admit what you did and move on. You're digging a bigger and bigger hole.

According to the Farmer's Almanac (yes, I did do some research), the temperature for August 5, 2004 in Santa Ana (which is further inland from Huntington Beach and will typically be 5 degrees hotter than Huntington Beach) the air temperatures was:

Max Air Temperature: 73.4 F
Mean Air Temp: 68.5 F
Min Air Temp: 64.4 F

Knowing that you dyno'd your car on this day, we can assume the air temperature was closer to 72 degrees, giving you a huge benefit of the doubt, and NOT your claimed 95-100 degrees (see quote above).

Again, giving you another benefit of the doubt, let's give you the 10-15 degrees for the added air intake temp. That brings the inlet temp to 82-87 degrees F, and NOT the 137 degrees that you used for your correction number.

Shiv, stop. Admit to everyone what you did. I know it. XS Engineering knows it. And, I think most people reading this thread know it. Your deception and unwillingness to admit to it, will do more damage to your reputation that you realize.

 

Did XS Engineering operate the dyno when he ran or did Shiv? If XS set the values, then how could Shiv be held responsible for bad temps?

Terry S

 

Shiv ran the car and placed the air temp sensor himself. XS merely supplied the dyno and the resulting graphs.

 

SPARCo - There's no point man. These guys think that VISHNU is the all know EVO tuning gods. Your wasting your time bro. Thanks for the good posts though.

 

Scott,

did you get the data sheets for the Turbo Magazine Evo that Shiv tuned prior to his on that dyno to see what intake air temps were registering on that car? Not the same car, but would be interesting to see the differences if it was really off on Shiv's car.

 

Uh Scott,

I don't think anyone will argue that it was 75 deg F there that day. In shop temps were closer to 100 deg. I think IE Evo and the other few customers that dropped by can attest to that.

Shiv