any engine that is lean and prone to detonation will wear out faster. Heat increases wear. If you have been building / working on engines as long as you say, you know that this is true. Newer technology in motorcylcles and cars are running higher compression engines these days. That doesn't mean that the a/f rations are leaner.

methyl / water injection done right can lower the intake temps ..if there was as much methyl / water injecting into the combustion chamber as you say ..the car would misfire because methly / water will not combust with a spark like fuel will.

 

Abner,

It was not an accident to comment on the combustion chamber, in fact , my comment was based on the pictures you posted long long ago when you showed the spark plugs to me and Edin when you were running the water kit on your car.

Carlos

 

vapor pressure(v.p.) of MeOH at various temperature in centigrade:

atmosphere ~760mmHg/Torr

MeOH v.p.@25C = 127 Torr
MeOH v.p.@100C = 2651 Torr
MeOH v.p.@200C = 30365 Torr
MeOH v.p.@300C = 140890 Torr

the cylinder walls and pistons has got to be several hundred degree C, doubt any MeOH that gets into the "hot" chamber will remain liquid for long

 

I give up here. Evrything you post has no intelligence to it at all. New direct injected motors ARE running extremely lean mixes. I am not saying they could. They ARE. 50/1 -60/1 at cruise and idle. and around 12.5/1 at max boost on 93octane. They also run extremely high compression for a turbo motor. DO your research.

In my case 12.8 a/f is not lean. Its the best mixture for maximum brake torque. low octane fuels like 93 octane need to be run rich to control combustion temps. 10.8- 11.4 is in order. When injecting alky so much heat is absorbed rich a/f of 11/1 are not needed and dont produce best power.

By your own testimony of how clean the chamber is when running on alky. Why do you think that is? Its because the alky cleans all surfaces form the big droplets that make it in. So it cleans all the sooty deposits but doesn't clean the oil of the walls????? Give me a break. You are way off here and uneducated on this subject.

 

Anyone ever tried to clean carbon deposits off valves or the top of pistons? That stuff is hard to get off. When you run alky you will never have to do this. The chambers, valves, plugs, etc, all stay very clean. The alky or water is responsible for this cleaning affect. This same cleaning affect cleans the valuable lubricating oil off the clyinder walls. End of discussion for me. If you dont get it now you never will.

 

sorry to chime in so late... doing the x-mas thing ya know. i kinda started this war of words on such a joyous holiday and now i feel bad this was not the intention! if you look at what i originally posted on the first page... ya know when i highjacked night walkers thread on who uses a meth setup daily and the plus and minus of your sys. with that said im just tryin to bump the original question i asked and get this thread fun again. trust me i have alot to say about the diirect injection topic (as a tech we just had the 335i introduced) search vishnus 335i work. lets just drink up and be merry *****es!

 

main thing im wondering is how does the failsafe work can you use it on stock ecu????? cuz i thought when it went low it switched maps and all just wondering cuz im really interesting iin getting one for my xmas present ;-)

 

Interesting stuff...I thought that clean combustion chambers were a result from a high temp., very efficient burn...I have wondered why so many on this site recommend running low 11's AFRs (which seems crazy rich to me, but I am not an engine builder...)...I also thought the ideal AFR mixture was in the 12.5 to 13.5 range, so it seems like many are leaving hp on the table and damaging their engines as the unburned [rich] fuel will accelerate oil breakdown and engine wear.

I have been contemplating alky or meth injection, as I could increase boost, but have realized that I may want to run a tad richer for safety...

Thanks guys!

 

I ran Water/Methanol Injection as an after-cooler in my Vortech Super Charged 2000 Eclipse V6 GT for two years.
It was set to spray at 5psi and up. I was running 25lbs of boost with no issues.

I'm thinking of going to the Propane Injection System in my evo IX.
Its been said to be better then water/meth.

http://www.importpoweronline.com/propane.html
Why?
Very High Octane Rating of 110+
Allows You To Run Higher Boost Levels Without Detonation
Very Cost effective. One $2.50 Propane Tank fill up lasts many gas tank fill ups
It's like running Race gas on the street....Except it only costs $3 month to use!

For Gasoline Forced Induction Vehicles
Higher Octane allows for higher boost pressure
without detonation which is the leading cause
of engine failure in F/I setups

The Gaseous/Vapor state of Propane forces a
better distribution of Air/Fuel charge greatly
reducing "Hot Spots" in the combustion chamber
lowering the chance for detonation

 

AAAAhhhh, THAT'S Where I went wrong!

 

Good info 94AWDcoupe!! I see what you are saying. In a nutshell, by shooting Meth, you LOSE the protective properties of the oil, and its effect on the coeficient of friction, hence will lead to premature wear and breakdown of the motor. Is this correct? That is what I got out of the thread. Thanks for the time explaining this. I/We appreciate it!

 

Interesting, I've heard about propane injection use in the buick gn community.
Might be a good alternative to alky/water injection.

Let us know how it works in your evo with a review!

 

First off - Why the direct attacks here ? For a turbo car 12.8 a/f is lean on pump gas. You will make more power but the engine will not last at WOT. Ask any reputable tuner. This is too lean.

With the proper methyl / water mix and nozzle size, the water injection will evaporate in the intake air stream and cool the air only. There will be no droplets ( using your language ) in the combustion chamber. In this example, methyl / water will not be injected into the combustion chamber.

If the incorrect nozzle size is selected, the methyl / water will reach the combustion chamber and due to the heat generated by the fuel / spark combustion process, any "droplets" are converted to vapor.

With the right nozzle size and tune, the effects that you noticed on the cylinder wall should not take place.

If there was too much water in the in the combustion chamber, the car will misfire. Methanol is an alcohol and is a cataylst. In theory, it should ignite with a spark and fuel and not wash down the cylinder walls affecting the oil properties.

There are different concentrations of Methanol and water available that makes the above point important to know.

Methyl / water injection slows the burn process down ~ makes it more controllable like race gas. There are less carbon deposits as a by product of this process not because water or methanol are washing down the piston and or cylinder wall.

I agree to disagree with you without making any personal attacks except that I think that you are wrong.

It is important on any modded turbo car that has water injection to tune for it to make sure that it is adding the benefits expected. Methly / Injection tuned properly will add safety first and power 2nd. The idea is to make power as a by product. I normally use it when the intake air temps are abnormally high to simulate the effects of cool weather. I do know of others ( and I do this occassionally ) who use WI to run higher boost. I never use it to run race gas like A/F ratios or aggressive ignition timing to ensure that pistons, cylinder walls, bearings are all kept in normal spec.

At this point, I suggest to just move forward and let other people do their own research.

 

12.5 -13.5 afr range is ideal for Normally aspirated cars.

 

I have to counter because I am certain the answer to this question is yes there is accelerated cylinder wear. You do sound like a very good tuner and I am not trying to bash you. You apparently have not seen the honing marks disappear very quickly from the cylinders as I have. I am 100% certain the effects I have seen are not from improper tuning, jet size or setup problem. I have every gauge there is that offers information in my car because I like to know exactly what is happeneing so I can furthur my knowledge and everone elses as well.


(1) 12.8 is not too lean like you have stated twice. this is NOT the reason my cylinder walls looked like chrome after 15,000 miles. the best a/f for best power is 12.5-13.5. This applies to both turbo and n/a. The ONLY reason turbo cars run richer mixtures is for the badly needed CYLINDER cooling/detonation resistance. If you run c16 ,a slower burning fuel you will make best power at 12.5/1 every tuner knows this. It does not need the extra rich mixtures. I have experimented on my cars a/f ratios of 8.5-1 all the way to 14-1 with close attention to knock and power levels. Methanol is a very forgiving fuel. It burns very slow much like c16 but it absorbs way more heat and that is what makes it work so well as a secondary injection fuel. It acts like a second intercooler allowing more air/f to enter the chamber.

(2) meth injection on my car uses a pump at 250psi. the fuel being injected is as atomized as it gets. The problem is the intake manifold. The entire inside of the runners get damp form alky as the air with fuel droplets passes by. This is just like rian on your windshield. rain collects on the windshield. the droplets combine witheach other and larger droplets are flung off the top of the windshield into the combustion chamber so to speak. This same affect happens when you drive through fog. Fog is perfectly atomized water. Yet it still collects on your windshield just like rain and the fog still produces large droplets that get slung off into the combustion chamber. I say it like this because the the inlet tract leading to the combustion chamber acts just like your windsheild in the rain. A second thing about meth is it makes best power at 4/1 ratio. That means there is going to be alot more FUEL in the chamber. Not all this fuel is going to be instantly vaporised by heat or converted to enegry in the combustion process. Fuel has mass and that fuel as it comes in the chamber is slammed toward the cylinder wall. The cylider being round tries to make its way back around to the intake side but it never does because there is not enough time. The inlet side of the chamber is ALWAYS where detonation starts. This is the part of the chamber that has less fuel and more air. Simple physics. Fuel has more mass the air. the large fuel/alky droplets that come off the intake wall as the valve opens are the ones that wash away the oil on the cylinder wall. I ran a extrude honed intake on my car and had to take it off because the smooth walls collect alky twice as bad as rough factory cast surface. The problems of the A/F being much richer at traffic lights was much more pronounced by the extruded intake. When pull to a stop the a/f will be richer as the fuel on the intake track is vacuumed dry. With a rough intake it takes about ten seconds for the a/f to stabilze. With the extruded intake it would take 30 seconds. A smooth surface collects fuel better. This is why intake ports are left on the rough side during port jobs. It keeps fuel suspended better. after 15000 miles my intake manifold was spotless from fuel constantly cleaning it.

(3) alky absorbs 4 times the heat that petrol does. It burns at 6.5/1 stichiometric and best power at 4-4.5/1. So there is going to be substantially more fuel in the chamber. And it burns at a slower rate than petrol. These fact lead to droplets that dont vaporise completey. The intercooler affect of alky is its best feature. It absorbs lots of heat and makes more power at the same time. there is substantially more fuel in the chamber. fuel is what washes away oil. I have noticed the oil change intervals have to be extremely high when injecting meth. This is due to the larger amount of fuel that end up in the oil. Also the engine will consume oil at a much faster rate. Instead of having to top your oil every three weeks you have to top it every week and a half. This is because more oil is being consumed in the combustion process. I had perfectly good ring seal in this motor as previously described.

(4) I am using correct nozzle sizes that atomise perfectly. And the engine is tuned correctly with AEM and no knock. I see the results. Anything richer than 14.7-1 for petrol and 6.5-1 for meth is considered a rich mixture. rich by definition means there will be fuel leftover that is not burned. so a simple slider scale can be made

more fuel unburned 11/1(93/meth)>13/1(93/meth)>11/1(93only)>13/1(93only)>14.7(no unburned fuel)

(5) I am tired of typing. By.