how many 100% meth users have tried 50/50
Once you introduce distilled water you will have to lean it out and advance timing beyond what is required at the 100% tune.
What is the issue with leaning out the mixture? A leaner mixture is more efficient and is required with water due to the slow burn rate. Also, water is really good at keeping the in cylinder temps down. You will just need to make sure you have a good ignition system to keep it firing.
I would expect that the introduction of water will cool the charge further and slow down the burn rate, but the octane equivalent of the fuel will change.
This is the real question, what is the potential octane number for straight water, 50/50, and meth? Also, what percentage of injectant to fuel is required to obtain this target octane? We may find that our ignition system is not capable of firing some mixtures when enough is injected to get the target octane value.
What is the issue with leaning out the mixture? A leaner mixture is more efficient and is required with water due to the slow burn rate. Also, water is really good at keeping the in cylinder temps down. You will just need to make sure you have a good ignition system to keep it firing.
I would expect that the introduction of water will cool the charge further and slow down the burn rate, but the octane equivalent of the fuel will change.
This is the real question, what is the potential octane number for straight water, 50/50, and meth? Also, what percentage of injectant to fuel is required to obtain this target octane? We may find that our ignition system is not capable of firing some mixtures when enough is injected to get the target octane value.
Phenix F.Y.I,
Any VP methanol used other then M1 has the potential to shorten the lifespan of the W/A components that have it flowing through it. Regardless of the kit being used.
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html
Very close to the bottom of the page.......its the additives that can cause an issue. Do yourself a big favor stick with M1 and you're system will reward you for a longER time.
Any VP methanol used other then M1 has the potential to shorten the lifespan of the W/A components that have it flowing through it. Regardless of the kit being used.
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html
Very close to the bottom of the page.......its the additives that can cause an issue. Do yourself a big favor stick with M1 and you're system will reward you for a longER time.
^ I noticed that already.... 
thanx for the backup though.
Its really hit or miss....The dyno numbers produced in my sig were done on M5.
thanx for the backup though.Its really hit or miss....The dyno numbers produced in my sig were done on M5.
Last edited by Ph3n1x; Oct 20, 2007 at 08:53 AM.
I switched to 100% M1 today and after just 3 pulls and a few adjustments the car can now run 24.5 psi and pulls all the way to 8000rpm. Still running a little rich and will be working on the tune some more. So far I am impressed with 100% and will be staying there.
I wish I could hold 24psi to redline.. 
You really need to test injection quantities before you quote the nozzle size you are running. I recently tested a 10m jet on my blue car that I assumed was around 1000cc like everyone quotes. But these progressive controllers do not always ramp the voltage like you think they are. The tested amount static was 560cc. It would have been less into boosted pipes but that is hard to test. I left out where a 50/50 mix would be good. I thought you could figure out that if small amounts like 300-400cc is best on water and large amounts 1200cc + is best on 100%meth then a medium amount 500-800cc is gonna work great with 50/50. The bottom line is water works great up to a certain percent. Then it kills power. It doesnt add MBT at all compared to fuel. It does wonders for controlling detonation but it is not a fuel.
Statements like "I went record breaking fast on 50/50 mix" and "I found my car to gain 20hp going from 11.5-12.00 a/f " can be very misleading to those trying to find answers here.
I think OK1X car is using a 7m jet. He may be injecting as little as 400cc. AND he is injecting on top of 20$ a gallon race gas. 100% water or 100% meth would likely work the same in his setup.
Ulimatecc. I have spoke with you on the phone. you where injecting 350cc when you tried 100% and 50/50 mixes in your car. You upped the jet to 650cc right before selling the car. You didnt do much testing with the medium volume.
You also must keep in mind that water and meth do different things to the engines timing needs. My yellow car a few years ago made about 40 more HP on 100% meth. leaning from 11.5-12.5. I made the wrong conclusion at the time that leaner mixture work best. Car used to wake up really. But that was because the timing was too low for the 11.5 mix. I later found another 40 hp at 10.8-1 and more timing. Meth makes most power at 4.5-1a/f. when using a WB scaled for pump fuel and you start injecting meth you ideal a/f will get lower and lower the more you inject. If you inject small amount your ideal a/f may be around 12.5/1. But at higher amounts like 1000cc your new ideal a/f is going to head toward 11.0 or lower. More meth there is in the mix the more timing you will need. Meth burns far slower than fuel so more timing will need to be added.
1 degree of timing can make 25hp. It can very easy to throw the timing needs off when you start injecting water or meth.
Injecting water is quite different. Its sole benefit is to control detonation by absorbing heat. So tuning with water will always lead to the ideal a/f being closest to 12.5-13.5. You wont ever here of anyone making good power on water injection at 10.5 a/f. You dont need that much cylinder cooling. Timing needs change when injecting water but its more complicated than when injecting meth. With meth the more you inject the more timing you need. With water its the fuel in the chamber that dictates what the timing needs will be.
here is the tool I use to test injection on map based cars. you can set turn on points and check flow volume with it. Just turn ignition on and pump compressed air at controlled pressure into your map sensor.
...img removed....
The best answer to this question is. Experiment with YOUR setup and find what works best.
Statements like "I went record breaking fast on 50/50 mix" and "I found my car to gain 20hp going from 11.5-12.00 a/f " can be very misleading to those trying to find answers here.
I think OK1X car is using a 7m jet. He may be injecting as little as 400cc. AND he is injecting on top of 20$ a gallon race gas. 100% water or 100% meth would likely work the same in his setup.
Ulimatecc. I have spoke with you on the phone. you where injecting 350cc when you tried 100% and 50/50 mixes in your car. You upped the jet to 650cc right before selling the car. You didnt do much testing with the medium volume.
You also must keep in mind that water and meth do different things to the engines timing needs. My yellow car a few years ago made about 40 more HP on 100% meth. leaning from 11.5-12.5. I made the wrong conclusion at the time that leaner mixture work best. Car used to wake up really. But that was because the timing was too low for the 11.5 mix. I later found another 40 hp at 10.8-1 and more timing. Meth makes most power at 4.5-1a/f. when using a WB scaled for pump fuel and you start injecting meth you ideal a/f will get lower and lower the more you inject. If you inject small amount your ideal a/f may be around 12.5/1. But at higher amounts like 1000cc your new ideal a/f is going to head toward 11.0 or lower. More meth there is in the mix the more timing you will need. Meth burns far slower than fuel so more timing will need to be added.
1 degree of timing can make 25hp. It can very easy to throw the timing needs off when you start injecting water or meth.
Injecting water is quite different. Its sole benefit is to control detonation by absorbing heat. So tuning with water will always lead to the ideal a/f being closest to 12.5-13.5. You wont ever here of anyone making good power on water injection at 10.5 a/f. You dont need that much cylinder cooling. Timing needs change when injecting water but its more complicated than when injecting meth. With meth the more you inject the more timing you need. With water its the fuel in the chamber that dictates what the timing needs will be.
here is the tool I use to test injection on map based cars. you can set turn on points and check flow volume with it. Just turn ignition on and pump compressed air at controlled pressure into your map sensor.
...img removed....
The best answer to this question is. Experiment with YOUR setup and find what works best.
The points you raised are what I was trying to drag out with this thread. I think a lot people just try different mixes on the same nozzle size and never go to different injection amounts when trying the different mixtures.
Also on the meth afr. That is exactly what I was thinking, stoick for meth is in the 4-6 range so when injecting large amounts your best power mix is no longer 12.5-13.5. I think if you are injecting too much or don't have enough timing or enough spark , you will need to run leaner to get the mixture to light which is why some folks are getting "better" results running 100% at high quantities in the 12's.
Originally Posted by tabio42;
Does stoichiometry work in this situation?
10% meth at ideal 4.5:1
10% water at ideal 12.5:1
80% fuel at ideal xxx:1
multiply/add/divide?
10% meth at ideal 4.5:1
10% water at ideal 12.5:1
80% fuel at ideal xxx:1
multiply/add/divide?
Most tunings are now done with a wideband, stoichiometry does seem to be as important and only excess oxygen is what matters.
'Effective' AFR appeared to be the common dialogue used.
couldnt agree more with 94awdcoupe, I always like to keep my afr in the high to mid's 11's and try to get as much timing as possiable with no knock with 100% (i inject close to 1000 cc's). The other day I flashed in my stock turbo timing map which is quite a bit compare to the timing I gave for my 20g. richen up the afr's around 10.9's-11 and according to DLL I pick-up 30hp compare to being a tab bit leaner and lower timing. Funny thing is I still have quite a bit of tweaking left. Timing is power.
You can do the same thing with pump gas too, richen up the mixture and add more timing. She will pull ALOT harden thru the powerband, this also depends on your tuner or yourself as well. Just ask username SOeuro LOL.
You can do the same thing with pump gas too, richen up the mixture and add more timing. She will pull ALOT harden thru the powerband, this also depends on your tuner or yourself as well. Just ask username SOeuro LOL.
Last edited by bnice01; Dec 24, 2007 at 09:02 AM.
Water knocks, the more there is, the more it knocks. Goes totally against what one would think due to it's chemical characteristics but that's how it goes.
Water has an infinant octane so this is backwards, dont understand
Water has an infinant octane so this is backwards, dont understand
However, to your point, I suppose that vaporizing water increases the pressure in a closed container... so potentially if you are injecting too much you could be spiking pressure in the cylinder if the water isn't vaporizing until it gets there. I don't know how significant it would be, but I suppose that could cause detination of the fuel, right? Even though the mixture is cooler, the pressure might be more.