Import Junky

iTrader: (7)

I'm looking into the Aquamist HFS-5 and the biggest reason I haven't bought it yet is the whole idea of having to constantly refill your meth. I searched all last night during my graveyard shift and came up with nothing. Does anyone have any hard numbers using a water/meth kit using 75-100% water? And if so are you making good power? I'm not worried about the price of the kit. It's the inconvience of looking for and supplying my meth.

lemmonhead

dont think anyone is using that high of water. its all about the meth man.

Import Junky

iTrader: (7)

I understand that. Maybe I should goes into the Northeast thread and ask some local guys if they're using meth and how easily they can get it. I don't want to deal with hazmat shipping fees, or the "Middle Men" taking an extra cut on selling the stuff.

wesside

iTrader: (16)

Just get the Aquamist HSF-1 and run a 50/50mix

esevo

iTrader: (11)

Wow some of you guys are no help

To the OP. Yes you can make good power just on water! INFACT you can make the MOST power on just water VS meth or water/meth!!! BUT you have to be very lean and not safe to make that power. Why do cars use water/meth? ( other companies OTHER than Aquamist claim cause of WW2 planes had it and made good power blah blah blah...) Truth is they just coping the first company to do it...

THE TRUTH is AQUAMIST came up with 100%water injection for WRC cars!(got the idea from the planes) Talk to Richard from Aquamist- WRC is limited to 350 WHP with a stock turbo with a limiter on the intake. These cars RUN so much Timing they make 450 wtq or MORE on %100 water with 40 psi!!!!! And their motors keep going... Other little facts is they also run PRE intercooler water injection because their speed is to low to get air through the air 2 air intercooler.

Water cools better than meth and has a better knock control and removes more heat than meth. Meth has better predet control as it takes longer to burn. Meth is also good for atomization, and "cooling" of the IC pipes... Being that you may be limited on meth availability... go to your local AUTOZONE and ask them to order a case of the Valuecraft(autozone brand) -20 degree windshield cleaner (its blue) its a 45/55 mix of meth to water. Its works great!!! And very cheap ($10-$15 for 6)

I made most power on %100 water... I made 382 whp on a mustang dyno but at a 13.5 AFR and 28 psi and 4 degrees of timing!Stock turbo! Its not somthing I want to do every day. Sure you can make power on JUST meth but why not run 100 octaine when you need to be boostin like that? The best and proven is 50/50Easy to tune and make power safely!

If your going after 100% Water go Aquamist 2d (water is what the system was made for) If your going 50/50 (which i do as its easy to tune and best cooling/octane) Id say HFS-5. If your on a budget go HFS-1. But HFS-5 Has the HSV (high speed valve) which makes tuning even more easy as you ALWAYS have a true water/meth to Fuel Ratio.

You PM'D me at VIVIDRACING... Feel free to PM me if you have anymore questions! Good luck!

Evan Smith

dudical26

iTrader: (17)

I feel I need to comment a bit on some of the things you have said. I'm not trying to call you out, I just what to clarify a few of the thing you have said about the effectiveness of water.

4WS Tuning

iTrader: (73)

alot of people run it as a replacement for an intercooler.. and cars that cant take too much power run it as well... I run water injection on my 08 GTI... I'll soon be trying different mixtures of meth and different nozzle sizes to see how much power i can make out of it.

I ran tons of meth on my evo at 34 pounds on the stock turbo and 34-36 psi on my 3065.

Cheers!

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

Gentlemen, straight from the horses mouth. Chief WRC engineer at Prodrive:

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthr...ater+injection

dudical26

iTrader: (17)

Great post richard, when was that article written? Did they go on to ban W/I in the WRC?

Have the WRC teams ever spoke to you about wanting to inject something other than water?

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

I have asked many times about methanol usage but always get the same answer back, quoting the rule book. Use of fuel octane enhancer is prohobited. Methanol has this effect.

Due to constant low/mid torque, the entire power band has shifted between 2-5K rpm. I remembered vaguely the engine produced in excess of 600lf-ft at 2500rpm.

This is where water's cooling and knock suppression property really shines... In the case of the WRC cars, high compression and high boost, coupled with a small turbo with a 34mm restrictor. Whatever air drawn in must be used effectively. Raising the boost to 45-50psi is the same as increases the compressin ratio, yielding more power output per unit of air inhaled.

There is case when water is more effective than methanol on on this project. Using two 150W shurflo pumps for two engines.

Banning water injection was a "window dressing" of "cost cutting exercise" for the men in grey suits (company accountant). This when the cost of running a WRC event escalated. Banning water injection has little effect on the real running cost. Unfortunately, the decision was not revoked. Even it saves the planet earth from carbon pullution as more fuel was dumped into the engine from 2006.

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

I have just found this thread, M100%, 50/50 or W100%?

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...hlight=50%2F50

esevo

iTrader: (11)

Couple things that Richard didnt cover in response on the water effectiveness.

One: water cools the intake charge LESS than meth (meth has less viscosity and spreads out more, Also meth is cold to the touch also helps cool...) Water removes heat in the cylinder better than meth.(putting out the fire) Water is just very hard to tune...

Two: For a 100% water injection THE 2d system was made for this reason. The Aquamist pump is NIGHT AND DAY better than the shuflo pump. If Richard would like to point out why in detail that would be great! The only reason Aquamist offers the shuflo pump is because of the volume needed to run 100% meth. But the Aquamist pump is superior in design and precision. The Shurflo is for those who think more is better!

You need ALOT more meth to see effectiveness, The max the aquamist pump can do is 500 or so CC per min. With an acumulater and a priming pump maybe more. Richard has sense modified the aquamist pump to handel a 50/50 mixter anymore meth you will need the shurflo.

The 2D system only lacks one thing compared to the HFS systems that is the DDS3. But good news you can purchase this and truly make the best Aquamist system. By missing the DDS3 It lacks the ability to turn on via IDC and the ability to watch the flow via the gauge. But it can be added.

Sorry it took so long to respond I was out of town. Either way any Aquamist kit is the way to go!

esevo

iTrader: (11)

Quoted from Richard:

"EVO kit,

I am stepping into deeper waters, slowly. So here are my opinions:

Richard that was a great informative post but can you just simply tell us what one is better??
I hate to sound like a politician, I think 50:50 is best for day to day street use. Due to the physical properties of the two, you have a wide effective temperature span. Please read on...

Maybe what one is better for road race and which one for drag??
I still opt for 50:50 for both. Since you want a specific answer, I will try:
I will go for 100% water in both cases, more importantly for the latter, you need to carry a great deal of methanol on board if you have long track time. I have to be clear, we are using pump fuel in both cases. If the race is very extreme, pure methanol injection has a limitation on octane enhancement, this be because only the first 5-10% has good effect on octane boosting, beyond this initial lift, it is only good as a fuel with a great deal of latent heat value.

If methanol is so good as a power added, as many vendors like to claim this (in their signature on the bottom of the post), fill your car up with E85 fuel and see if you improve your track time. Discussion Forum is a great place for participating vendors and customer interacts. There are many any mis-information lurks below, take all advice as a pinch of salt. Dyno-graphs and ¼ mile slip is only a sales tool, good results are a combination of careful ECU mapping and sound mechanical preparation.

Also, Is one of the method easier and more stable to tune??
50:50 for sure. There are not many tuners willing to take the water injection tune to the limit. That is, you need to go beyond the melting point of your engine components and brings it down to acceptable working temperature, this type of tuning is rarely done for practical reasons. Alcohol tuning on the other hand is simple, blessed with higher octane and more liquid to evaporate to cool your combustion chambers. Beware, loosing alcohol will rob your engine with high-octane fuel as well and a very large chunk of cooling capacity. Failsafe is vital with alcohol injection. One last thought, you really need a 3-D alcohol injection system to tune a alcohol rich engine properly. Load and RPM transient response time is very important.


And any other things a regular car would like to know when making a decision about what to inject.
A regular car without some form of management system should not be tuned beyond 10% over its rated power, you are really asking for trouble. I think if you want to inject something, go for water only, lift a few psi over stock when water flow is detected. As for fueling for that extra boost, the in-built fuel dumping technology from the manufacturers will take care of that, just let water do the cooling. If 100% alcohol is injected instead of water, the a/f ratio will be too rich to give you any meaningful results."

dudical26

iTrader: (17)

..

esevo

iTrader: (11)

"Unless I'm mistaken, removing heat has nothing to do with viscosity. Water removes more heat because it has a higher latent heat of vaporization."

Viscosity has a big part in removing heat. If meth can "shear apart" or spread better it will atomize better to! Allowing for more effeciant cooling. If your only cooling one or two cylinders whats the point of WI?
IN the cylinder water does remove more heat correct! I believe SLOWCAR Abner has a post on this forum about how Methonal cools the AIR down better than water. Im no chemist but have you touched meth? its cold once the air gets to it.(on your finger) Same effect. Thats why water meth 50/50 is the best because you get the best of both worlds!

"Code:
Product Btu/lb
Methanol 473
Water 970.4
Here we see that water requires more than twice the amount of energy to vaporize. "

Correct thats why there is a lot less water consumtion and a full tank will last you a lot longer than 50/50 or just meth. Also means you need twice the amount of meth and need a bigger pump. You are correct, just may need to look at it differently

"Why do you say water is hard to tune?"
Not really hard... but more scary! You need to go past the melting point of your motor to make power, not a lot of tuners will agree to going that far, there for making it hard to get tuned for it