Intercooler Size with Lots of Meth
Intercooler Size with Lots of Meth
About a year ago I bought a Buschur Racing RACE intercooler. The intercooler is massive. I have been very happy with the unit as I noticed it really transformed the car in hot weather. Since having meth I have come to question the need for such a large intercooler.
Some might say if you already have it then just keep it. However, the buschur unit weighs 20lbs more than the stock unit. I'm also a believer of having as few parts as possible.
I am spraying 100% meth in the upper part of the UICP using two 1.0mm jets on my HFS-5
What do you guys think, do I need such a large intercooler? Maybe I can go back to stock, perhaps I should run a bit of water if I do that? I have seen data about spraying pre-intercooler and also removing the intercooler all together....neither of these are options that I will pursue.
Some might say if you already have it then just keep it. However, the buschur unit weighs 20lbs more than the stock unit. I'm also a believer of having as few parts as possible.
I am spraying 100% meth in the upper part of the UICP using two 1.0mm jets on my HFS-5
What do you guys think, do I need such a large intercooler? Maybe I can go back to stock, perhaps I should run a bit of water if I do that? I have seen data about spraying pre-intercooler and also removing the intercooler all together....neither of these are options that I will pursue.
Last edited by dudical26; Jun 28, 2008 at 05:05 AM.
I had a couple more points while thinking about this more.
I was thinking about how to test this if I wanted to. I was thinking I could get a couple temp probs and test it out back to back and also data log to calculate HP with each setup. However, I was thinking if I had the temp sensor in the intake manifold would that give me conclusive evidence as to the cooling effects of meth vs a larger IC. In other words, can any intake cooling still occur once the air goes past the intake manifold.
I was thinking that if I test this the smaller IC might show hotter intake temps in the manifold but might actually get just as cool in the cylinders themselves.
I was thinking about how to test this if I wanted to. I was thinking I could get a couple temp probs and test it out back to back and also data log to calculate HP with each setup. However, I was thinking if I had the temp sensor in the intake manifold would that give me conclusive evidence as to the cooling effects of meth vs a larger IC. In other words, can any intake cooling still occur once the air goes past the intake manifold.
I was thinking that if I test this the smaller IC might show hotter intake temps in the manifold but might actually get just as cool in the cylinders themselves.
If you are using the stock turbo... I would say no. Having the such a large intercooler isn't worth it. You could get away with having a much smaller aftermarket unit and perhaps pick up a little bit in spool and cut some weight off the front end.
I wouldn't go back to a stock intercooler though, not when you can get an ETS one for so cheep.
I wouldn't go back to a stock intercooler though, not when you can get an ETS one for so cheep.
Thanks for posting but I am looking for something drawing on a bit more evidence or personal experience using meth and small intercoolers, not just speculative opinion.
First, a question. Is your car any more laggy on the stock turbo with that race FMIC, compared to the stocker?
The main advantage of the bigger intercooler is its ability to flow more air. Your intake charge is being massively cooled with the alky once it gets to the TB, but having that big FMIC there can only help the situation. I know several people making good power on the stock FMIC w/ E85 or alky, and there is always a big question about weather its worth it to upgrade.
The answer is simple: if the stocker is a restriction on your setup, then removing it will yield more power. I say keep the race FMIC, or if you do downgrade, go to a Deluxe core...something that will flow nicely, not weigh too much, but still be a 'bigger' intercooler.
A while ago someone was @ buschurs and they swapped out their deluxe FMIC for a race...running alky, on a green, he picked up almost 15whp....
....so I have a deluxe FMIC....wanna trade?
The main advantage of the bigger intercooler is its ability to flow more air. Your intake charge is being massively cooled with the alky once it gets to the TB, but having that big FMIC there can only help the situation. I know several people making good power on the stock FMIC w/ E85 or alky, and there is always a big question about weather its worth it to upgrade.
The answer is simple: if the stocker is a restriction on your setup, then removing it will yield more power. I say keep the race FMIC, or if you do downgrade, go to a Deluxe core...something that will flow nicely, not weigh too much, but still be a 'bigger' intercooler.
A while ago someone was @ buschurs and they swapped out their deluxe FMIC for a race...running alky, on a green, he picked up almost 15whp....
....so I have a deluxe FMIC....wanna trade?
From my experience in the past, going to a larger intercooler didn't help me when I've been running my water/alcohol injection. When I had my Talon Tsi Awd years ago, I was running a slightly modified 4G63 with a small 16G. I was running my stock side mount intercooler when I added the Aquamist W/A injection. The car ran great once I played with different nozzles. At that time I was able to run 12.70's @ 110 MPH on 91 octane with the W/A. I then upgraded to a larger front mount intercooler and played around with different nozzles and also played around with my VPC/GCC. I didn't get any quicker. I also missed the extremely fast spool up of the side mount intercooler. I figured that the W/A injection was just doing a great job of cooling the intake charge and the front mount wasn't needed at my horsepower/mod level.
I've been very reluctant to add a larger upgraded intercooler on my Evo since I've been running my W/A injection. I have to admit that I've had my eye on a ETS intercooler for quite some time and the looks of a larger intercooler on a Evo is fantastic, but will it improve my performance? I really don't think so with my level of mods. The sad thing is that I've seen several Evo's at the drag strip with upgraded intercoolers and with no W/A injection, most of them have admitted that they saw no improvement in their 1/4 times or trap speeds. Now, I can't speak for the guys running extended times on a road course. Maybe that's where the upgraded intercooler will shine. So for now I will be upgrading my good ol' trusty Aquamist 2D W/A system to the Aquamist HFS-5 (I'm actually in the process right now, I'm mounting the DDS3 at this very moment). I believe this upgrade will net be better performance than a upgraded intercooler would have.
I've been very reluctant to add a larger upgraded intercooler on my Evo since I've been running my W/A injection. I have to admit that I've had my eye on a ETS intercooler for quite some time and the looks of a larger intercooler on a Evo is fantastic, but will it improve my performance? I really don't think so with my level of mods. The sad thing is that I've seen several Evo's at the drag strip with upgraded intercoolers and with no W/A injection, most of them have admitted that they saw no improvement in their 1/4 times or trap speeds. Now, I can't speak for the guys running extended times on a road course. Maybe that's where the upgraded intercooler will shine. So for now I will be upgrading my good ol' trusty Aquamist 2D W/A system to the Aquamist HFS-5 (I'm actually in the process right now, I'm mounting the DDS3 at this very moment). I believe this upgrade will net be better performance than a upgraded intercooler would have.
Last edited by EvoTio; Jun 23, 2008 at 08:15 AM.
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Man I'm sorry, I searched and searched, I know you want specific answers, but I could not find the specific comments that were made. BUT, here's what I found, and if my memory serves me well, last year at the dyno day before the buschur shootout, David Lowe (justchil) was on the rollers with a green and couldn't hit 400whp with pump/alky...he was at 590 or something. David suggested swapping out his BR Deluxe FMIC with the race core, and he hit 404whp or something, just like that.
I thought it was mentioned in this thread and video, but I couldn't find it:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...light=justchil
I thought it was mentioned in this thread and video, but I couldn't find it:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...light=justchil
dudical26, I share your concerns about Buschur's Race core being too big and what not with the stock turbo, but honestly, I put the stock IC on and the spool up, to me felt the same. I wish I had something to data log it with to know exactly how much, but I don't think it made a big difference... I know for fact though, with the stock IC, the car felt as if it it were getting slower and slower every pull, and I'm thinking its because of heat soak. The Race core for some reason loves being ran hard, and run after run my car feels the same. Logically, if you have a bigger core to fill up, you're going to introduce lagg filling up that space, but I have yet to see it become a serious issue I had to address and for that reason I'm letting it be. I'm very happy with it and comparing my spool up characteristics vs those with the stock core and others, spool is within a few 100 RPM's.
David Lowe is not justchil.
Yes, David's car was here last year at the shootout with our deluxe or standard core on it. (Don't remember which but they use the same core size).
The car was stuck under 400 whp. He wanted to get over that.
I actually just went back and pulled the dyno sheet out of the computer rather than doing this from memory.
The gains are actually better than I remembered in the low/mid range which will show that the difference in spool up is actually BETTER with the race than with even our deluxe/standard.
This dyno sheet is completely UNTUNED. I had finished tuning his car the day before, he then decided to add the Race FMIC and did it in our parking lot. I then put the car back on the dyno and this was the very first pull with no other changes being made.
Because there is less back pressure with the Race FMIC the boost actually will raise at the plenum, that is why the low/mid is so much better.
So this is a back to back, untuned difference between the intercoolers:
Yes, David's car was here last year at the shootout with our deluxe or standard core on it. (Don't remember which but they use the same core size).
The car was stuck under 400 whp. He wanted to get over that.
I actually just went back and pulled the dyno sheet out of the computer rather than doing this from memory.
The gains are actually better than I remembered in the low/mid range which will show that the difference in spool up is actually BETTER with the race than with even our deluxe/standard.
This dyno sheet is completely UNTUNED. I had finished tuning his car the day before, he then decided to add the Race FMIC and did it in our parking lot. I then put the car back on the dyno and this was the very first pull with no other changes being made.
Because there is less back pressure with the Race FMIC the boost actually will raise at the plenum, that is why the low/mid is so much better.
So this is a back to back, untuned difference between the intercoolers:
YAY I'm glad I got dave to post in this thread. Thanks Dave! Freaking amazing results. Sorry about the D. Lowe/justchil mixup, I don't know all of these guys!
dudical, you wanna trade me race core for deluxe core now?
dudical, you wanna trade me race core for deluxe core now?
Would you consider your test a back to back comparison? Meaning that you could replicate those results again?
It seems nuts to me that you could gain over 50tq on spoolup with your race core.
Thx
It seems nuts to me that you could gain over 50tq on spoolup with your race core.
Thx
David Lowe is not justchil.
Yes, David's car was here last year at the shootout with our deluxe or standard core on it. (Don't remember which but they use the same core size).
The car was stuck under 400 whp. He wanted to get over that.
I actually just went back and pulled the dyno sheet out of the computer rather than doing this from memory.
The gains are actually better than I remembered in the low/mid range which will show that the difference in spool up is actually BETTER with the race than with even our deluxe/standard.
This dyno sheet is completely UNTUNED. I had finished tuning his car the day before, he then decided to add the Race FMIC and did it in our parking lot. I then put the car back on the dyno and this was the very first pull with no other changes being made.
Because there is less back pressure with the Race FMIC the boost actually will raise at the plenum, that is why the low/mid is so much better.
So this is a back to back, untuned difference between the intercoolers:
Yes, David's car was here last year at the shootout with our deluxe or standard core on it. (Don't remember which but they use the same core size).
The car was stuck under 400 whp. He wanted to get over that.
I actually just went back and pulled the dyno sheet out of the computer rather than doing this from memory.
The gains are actually better than I remembered in the low/mid range which will show that the difference in spool up is actually BETTER with the race than with even our deluxe/standard.
This dyno sheet is completely UNTUNED. I had finished tuning his car the day before, he then decided to add the Race FMIC and did it in our parking lot. I then put the car back on the dyno and this was the very first pull with no other changes being made.
Because there is less back pressure with the Race FMIC the boost actually will raise at the plenum, that is why the low/mid is so much better.
So this is a back to back, untuned difference between the intercoolers:
David Lowe is not justchil.
Yes, David's car was here last year at the shootout with our deluxe or standard core on it. (Don't remember which but they use the same core size).
The car was stuck under 400 whp. He wanted to get over that.
I actually just went back and pulled the dyno sheet out of the computer rather than doing this from memory.
The gains are actually better than I remembered in the low/mid range which will show that the difference in spool up is actually BETTER with the race than with even our deluxe/standard.
This dyno sheet is completely UNTUNED. I had finished tuning his car the day before, he then decided to add the Race FMIC and did it in our parking lot. I then put the car back on the dyno and this was the very first pull with no other changes being made.
Because there is less back pressure with the Race FMIC the boost actually will raise at the plenum, that is why the low/mid is so much better.
So this is a back to back, untuned difference between the intercoolers:
Yes, David's car was here last year at the shootout with our deluxe or standard core on it. (Don't remember which but they use the same core size).
The car was stuck under 400 whp. He wanted to get over that.
I actually just went back and pulled the dyno sheet out of the computer rather than doing this from memory.
The gains are actually better than I remembered in the low/mid range which will show that the difference in spool up is actually BETTER with the race than with even our deluxe/standard.
This dyno sheet is completely UNTUNED. I had finished tuning his car the day before, he then decided to add the Race FMIC and did it in our parking lot. I then put the car back on the dyno and this was the very first pull with no other changes being made.
Because there is less back pressure with the Race FMIC the boost actually will raise at the plenum, that is why the low/mid is so much better.
So this is a back to back, untuned difference between the intercoolers:
Thanks for the info.