aqmist

iTrader: (6)

Also for the sake of discussion and again from Richard L.

Methanol by volume: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/index2.html#
Click "VP U.S. Distribution" then find the closest main distributor and get their contact info. Ask them for a VP M1 dealer near you

Info on methanol http://www.methanol.org/pdf/FuelProperties.pdf

http://www.goestores.com/home.aspx?Merchant=highfuelsn

http://www.worldwideracingfuels.com/

The following charts are calculated based on:

10Kg of air, Gasoline's latent heat capacityof 350KJ/Kg
Water's latent heat capacity of 2256KJ/Kg
Methanol's latent heat capacity of 1109KJ/Kg

Injection water at different ratio to fuel at 100% water and 75% Water/25% Methanol. You can see the at 100% water injection, only 3% of w/f fuel ratio is enough to replace 2.5 point of a/f ratio (dotted line). As soon as 25% of Methanol is added, the a/f ratio is dropped to 12.0 - loosing some cooling capacity




Each of the following charts show a 25% percent increase in Methanol concentration of the mix.




Lastly, just methanol is added and no water. The chart on the right is 100% water




The two charts show (first and last) will require you to inject twice the amount of methanol to equal the latent heat of water alone. Methanol is relatively low cost and very effective as a coolant so what is the problem?

When a higher concentration of methanol is injected, you need to lean your engines a/f ratio to accommodate the extra fuel or your engine will bog down and loose power. Consequentially you run the risk of putting the engine into heat stress if the supply of methanol is suddenly interrupted. Injecting water does not affect the a/f ratio. It appears that 50/50 mix has the best of both worlds.

In either cases, having a good WI system with reliable "system fault" diagnostic capability is essential, this is especially true if you are running a high concentration of Methanol. I have not taken the account of the fueling properties of methanol.

aqmist

iTrader: (6)

And lastly the turbo chargers and knock white paper:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/atta...gers-knock.doc


IMO its must reading to help with understanding whats going on in the combustion chamber as applies to engine running turbo chargers. Its good because its written by some smart guys who understand water injection...........sometimes when you want to get technical about water injection there's not much to back things up other then pieces of info found here or there on the web, with this the info in one spot and backed up with references to white papers written by engineers. People who are into W/A injection have something to use and can trust for good info.

Note: a lot of solid technical info from water and methanol injection is a result of testing concluded by engineers during and just after WWII when piston engine design for aircraft was at the peak in resources available to find accurate answers ........many of these men and women went on into NASA when getting into space was the focal point of things.

It would be nice at some point if the resources of the automotive industry or Govts would again back with funds solid research into using water injection, if anything for performance applications that include turbo's.

Evoryder

iTrader: (55)

Very nice job on the install! The connectors on the flow sensor is a really good idea.

esevo

iTrader: (11)

aqmist Just saved me a bunch of typing! lol Perfect explination... looking forward to more questions.

Lamens terms 100% meth is the easy to extract power just like race fuel.
100% water when pushed to the limit will make more power than anything else.
50/50 takes the best of both worlds and make them work together.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=372627

^^^ A simple version of what AQMIST posted.

Thanks

Evan Smith

dudical26

iTrader: (17)

Richard -

I know you have worked a lot with rally teams and even f1 teams in that past, have they ever done any testing as to what mixture works best? It seems that they all ran 100% water but I wonder if this is down to regulations or testing? It's fair to say that the testing done by rally and f1 guys is WAY more then any of us could ever do. If they found water to be the best then I'll believe it is, lol.

esevo

iTrader: (11)

^^^ Due to limitations Rally Teams could only use water, no meth because it’s a fuel. BUT they only used water out here in the desert where the water can evaporate. When the water evaporates it removes a lot of heat compared to meth. In the snow and colder climates they didn’t need as much WI as it was hard to evaporate. Because of this limitation the Rally teams found that they could make a lot more TQ an PWR with 100% water and do it so effectively.

Rally Cars need low end tq to accelerate from low speeds 2000 rpm to about 6000 rpm, running 40 psi + of boost out of a small turbo helps achieve the TQ needed, a long with a lot of advance timing. Advance timing and that high of boost as you know causes high heat and knocking. With the addition of direct water injection and IC injection they could achieve this with a lot of tuning and practice.

Evan Smith

dudical26

iTrader: (17)

Edit

dudical26

iTrader: (17)

Going back to what Richard said -

"Water suppresses knock by quenching peak flame front temperatures "

"Alcohol suppresses detonation by increasing the knock threshold value of a given fuel grade"

Can we agree that alcohol also suppresses knock by quenching peak flame front temps, just not as much as water does (per specific volume)

"Methanol has only about half of the energy content of gasoline, so twice as much methanol has to be injected to produce the same power. As twice the amount of liquid has to be injected, the cooling effect is huge, resulting in over-cooled combustion chamber, limiting the BMEP. A 100% methanol engine has to use multi-spark ignition system to ensure the mixture is constantly being re-ignited due to the cold combustion chamber. "

Now lets compare water and meth a bit more - check out the attached table

Now obviously this is not a very in depth examination and I am most definitely simplifying things. But it points out that if you spray enough meth to match the cooling of water, you also increase the octane of the gas. It does not really however address that as you replace gasoline with methanol, although you increase the octane you also decrease the energy in the total amount of fuel.

I’m not really sure how to further continue this little hypothetical situation but I want to try and mathematically represent as real life a situation as possible.

dudical26

iTrader: (17)

I was doing more number crunching and I am running into an issue that I understand logically but can't seem to represent with numbers.

Lets say you spray water, and as a result of the cooling you lean out your AFR. Using math to calculate the total energy in the fuel would make it seem that you lost power because you are using less fuel and there for have less energy available. But that is obviously not correct.

Do I need to use an effeciency factor to divide the total energy available in the fuel to figure out how much power is really being made. Because a leaner AFR means a more effecient burn which means more power, even though there is less fuel.

I'm just trying to think how to represent this theory mathamatically so that we can come up with some numbers to back up the theory.

aqmist

iTrader: (6)

Things get altered and confusing when comparing or referencing A/F and methanol injection. With regards to methanol you should use Lamda for the calculation and not typical wideband A/F info as in when looking at gas A/F ratios.

Also, with methanol, In order to really take advantage of the large amount of methanol you need to make a more dramatic change in fuel trims as the methanol needs to be injected in large amounts. As a result of injecting very large amounts its not as efficient as water. With water you typically only look to trim out the dumped fuel that was put there as an in cylinder coolant by the factory OR was left in by the tuner as an extra margin of safety.......you're not tuning out fuel because your adding fuel like as with when injecting a large volume of methanol

There's a trade off with water, although you need less of it versus methanol to get the optimal cooling effects it does not subsidize the octane value of the regular fuel being injected........the water droplets effect the flame front in the combustion chamber but the combustion chamber will still have a large amount of fuel with a lower octane value, which can be import in simple week end warrior drag race scenarios.

esevo

iTrader: (11)

Ok for facts sake:

In theory: Peak power/efficiency for an internal combustion engine is stoich @ 14.7 AFRS.

In reality: All cars (minus the new amazing direct injection!) can not run stoich (14.7 Afrs) from the factory because the motor will melt, so they richen them up, really richen them up to keep them cool. You have two purposes of gasoline, to cool and to burn. So call one “burning fuel” and the other “cooling fuel”

Since it’s clarified;


One of the main benefits, but often overlooked, is of the leaning out the engine; ”cooling fuel” will impede the good burn because it produces CO. If you are running this "cooling fuel" aka rich, the added CO will take the good oxygen out of the cylinder, causing a power loss. There is only 20% of oxygen in air, taking the good oxygen out of your engine by the form of CO robs 60% of energy compared to CO2. CO will interfere with combustion much more than water. Given the choice between injecting more “Cooling fuel” or H20 as a coolant, H2O is your best choice. You have to only inject 1/6th H2O to have the same effect as the “cooling fuel” with no CO contamination. So the water allows you to use less “cooling fuel” which = less CO, so you have more room for "good" air to be burned, giving you extra HP and TQ. Plus you also can turn up the limits since water cools way better than the “cooling fuel”.

When you inject meth you’re still adding CO to the system since it is a fuel. It takes twice as much meth to burn to get the same energy as gas and twice as much to get the same cooling as water. Due to those facts it adds twice as much CO and twice as much corrosiveness + your using twice as much.

At 30psi stock IX turbo on my car I only see about 62-65% duty cycle on my stock injectors due to the amount of water/meth replacing the “cooling” fuel. Generally on stock injectors at that boost you would be maxed out on stock injectors. Its amazing how much H20 the engine can take before blowing out the spark. A 50% water to fuel ratio is only 6.25% of total liquid in mass in the cylinder. (Air =14.5/ Fuel =1/ H2O =0.5).

Evan Smith

aqmist

iTrader: (6)

You know reading the posts on here from EVO owners makes me regret the SRT purchase..........try to get to this level of discussion on there and it would likely become like the cafeteria scene in Animal House......or it could be like Samuel Becketts play "Waiting for Godot".

If anyone wants a good laugh some time, post up that you are a new SRT owner and are looking to buy a W/A kit but need help in deciding what to buy and how W/A injection works, play a little dumb but ask logical questions ...................let the fun begin from that point on.

esevo

iTrader: (11)

Are you sure you dont regret the srt4 purchase because the evo is so much better? Or that we have power rear windows? JK JK

I have read on the Srt forums for a while, a lot of good... and bad lol.




Evan Smith

leecavturbo

awesome topic.
from what i can gather is meth will give massive gains EASILY whilst water will give more but is much harder to dial in ??????

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

Jack,

This is a great party trick