I'm "stock" or not modded, officer.

 

Yes, I read the same article everyone else did. I'm also your age. Age has nothing to due with whether or not someone is an "enthusiast." Maybe to you and and the other poster - not to me, and not as defined by the dictionary. Cops aren't dissecting sub groups on enthusiasts, the previous poster was with quotes like: no real enthusiasts got busted.

Law enforcement is **not** a business. I live in the same society you do. I realize at times law enforcement is run like a business, but its not, nor should it be. The whole purpose of a business is again, to earn money for a product/service rendered. Businesses compete with other businesses to make money. If law enforcement agencies were businesses, they wouldn't be operated by local government and there would be many law enforcement agencies competing against one another. I realize they collect money from fees/fines so that taxpayers do not foot the whole bill. I don't believe cops should be out there exclusively pulling cats out of trees and "fighting the bad guys," as you put it. What I do think though, is that its unconstitutional to lock down a parking lot, tell everyone they can't leave until they've all been searched and its been proven that their cars are legal. I am also sure that if those guys get lawyers, the charges can and will be dropped.

If you believe that loitering is grounds to have you and your property searched, we also disagree there. Warrantless search and interrogation is a really big deal, even if applied to a bunch of ricers few people care about. The very link you posted suggests:
Probable cause exists when "the facts and circumstances within the arresting officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe that a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime."

How loitering equates to a search of a suspected vehicle for engine modifications is not exactly clear to me. A prudent person may not come to the conclusion that loitering kids in a parking lot are street racing there, OR that all of their cars are illegally modified.

Clever funny pics and all, but follow your own advice on the math. The article referenced says that it cost $500,00.00. Do you believe that they recouped the costs of it by issuing 98 tickets? I don't. Those 98 tickets issued would have to come out on average to 5K~ a piece. Engine mod tickets vary, but typically don't end up being more than 1K. Window tint tickets are nowhere near that.

I'm all for mature conversation. I would really like to know how I'm missing the point here as you both seem to suggest I am. I have also experienced first hand the ignorance of the ricers that probably got busted there. I know those guys aren't the complete innocent victims here and it was incredibly stupid to NOT get a properly reserved venue. Great - hit em up for loitering and trespassing.

The original poster that I was disagreeing with suggests that the people loitering in the parking lot had it coming. I agree that they had loitering tickets coming for sure. Thats about where it ends. He goes on to admit he too breaks the law, and is just much better about blending in. Using the logic applied by the quotes of the cops in the article itself, "why would you want these mods if you aren't a street racer?" He too, is a street racer, and he too has it coming. I don't agree with that either. Not if he's just loitering.

So.. in closing man - lets get back to getting along and sharing ideas or please, kindly explain to me where I'm wrong so I might better understand. No disrespect or callousness needed. I'm no more of a "kid" than you are, and no less of an enthusiast than either of you.

 

You missed my point about splitting us into groups. You and I split them up based on our own criteria, the same as the cops do. Be it real or imagined, it is all subjective, opinionated and in some cases just plain wrong. To US age has nothing to do with enthusiast/street racer, but to the cops, it doesn't matter. THAT is the point here.

Law enforcement by definition is *not* a business. You aren't going to see LVMPD Inc. anytime soon; I'll agree with you there. You can't possibly convince me that a lot of their decisions are not financially-driven. They have cost elements, fiscal responsibilities, budgets, etc... just like a business, so in essence they ARE a business.

Maybe this will clear it up some for you: A business (the police) provides a service/product (law enforcement/deterrent) for which the customer (John Q. Public) pays (taxes/fines) when that service is rendered (traffic stops/arrests).

I'll address the search part a bit later though.

Since you want to play "by the book", consider this: They had probable cause to expect that with a large gathering of modified cars there would be street racing at some point, someplace, which is an illegal activity. By definition (that you re-quoted" if they had reasonable suspicion to believe that there was about to be illegal activity taking place, they are well within their rights to attempt to put a stop to it. The same applies with the car searches. They had reason to believe that some of the stuff in the cars was either illegal or stolen. Whether or not PC was based on fact or not is completely immaterial.

For the ones that got caught in the net that are innocent, it'll all come out in the wash. If they are legal, they'll get off with no penalties.

No I don't think they issued $500,000 worth of tickets, nor did I ever say they did recoup their costs for this operation. In the grand scheme of things, the money is really small potatoes compared to the deterrent factor. If they can scare some of these kids into not going out street racing, then they've won the larger battle of making the roads safer. Would you rather them do the overtime trying to prevent street racing or do the overtime cleaning up some horrific wreck and scraping one of those kids off a freeway overpass?

Okay, so we're chasing our tails on this one. Let's say they get pinched for lotiering and/or tresspassing; then what? You know as well as I do that all they'll do is find a new place to meet up and you're stuck with the same situation again. How do you not see this?

The other guy is right that if you blend in, you lessen your chances of getting hemmed up. The nail that sticks out furthest is the first to get hammered. A bunch of guys in their modded cars sitting in the parking lot of some place that isn't even open for business is a big fat Batsignal for the donut-chokers to come get them.

Just like I hopefully explained, they were sticking out, making a spectacle of themselves. Going about our daily lives, we shouldn't have to worry about getting profiled, but if you're zooming around, racing at stoplights, doing other stuff to draw attention to yourselves, don't cry when you get pulled over. Sadly, however, if one person does it, we all get profiled. It kind of goes with the territory, unfortunately.

 

see its a business like anything else. its all about money not about the safety of people on the street. these ignorant idiot are in it for the financial revenues.

 

First off let me say thanks for the thoughtful response. I like discussing things like this because these types of things can ultimately affect us all.
Again, I don't disagree. All I am saying though is a police force driven by decisions made for financial gain is a terrifying idea. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that the fact that we have accepted this is also very scary and to me. Law enforcement for the purpose of revenue generation should not be acceptable - the inherit profiling which can and does accompany such a mentality only hurts the innocent victims and tarnishes an already battered police reputation.
ok, I can see what you are saying. Although I think its messed up (of the police, not your definition), I see what you are saying. I still think a decent lawyer can probably get the charges dropped, but that makes some sense. I think that looking at a group of ricers in a parking lot and assuming they are going to race is probably accurate, its also profiling. If those cars were busses, and it was just a bus drivers convention, only loitering and trespassing tickets would have been handed out. Again though, I see what you are saying, I just don't think its right.
When reading this in combination with what you've already said about it being operated like a business, I see it as a contradiction. I agree with this this last paragraph in the intent of the deterrent factor, however sinceu no moving violations were even issued... A deterrent of what? Racing that wasn't happening? Or modding which we are all doing? See my point? Do you believe that engine mod tickets and window tint tickets among others is a deterrent for street racing? I do not. I have however been issued an exhibition of speed ticket, and THAT WAS. I'll likely never drive agressively on public roads again. This was not an issue of busting street racers street racing. It was an issue of (perhaps correctly) profiling street racers as loitering, and then nailing them to the wall as street racers. Which is the part I have such a hard time with.
I do see this. I just think you have to bust criminals committing the crime. Not making an assumption that its going to happen and then getting them before. I do not believe that a single citation issued in this event will prevent any of these guys from street racing if that is their intent. It will simply prevent them from loitering in that parking lot. If that is worth $500,000.00 to the police and the public, then it was worth it. I don't believe it is.
Again, we agree. I'm just pointing out that the only distinction between us and the guys busted is, as you say - sticking out, then we should all expect to have our cars searched for illegal mods for **any** crimes/misdemeanors we should have happen our way in the event of a run-in with the law. For example: going 5mph over the posted speed limit and expect to get searched? Thats not constitutional, and its why cops have to ask if they can search your car rather than tell you they are going to. Have a tail light out? expect to pop the hood - see what I am saying? I'm not saying thats not how it is, I'm saying thats not right, and its upsetting to me.
You have explained it well. I think we are mostly in agreement about alot of this stuff. I also agree that if you are zooming from stop light to stop light, driving aggressively, or doing donuts all over the place should get you a street racing ticket and have your car taken away. Where we have to be careful is in saying its justfied to profile loiterers as street racers, and shoehorn them into the associated crimes there when all that can be proven at a civilians glance is that they are indeed loitering.
Again, thanks for taking the time time to actually discuss this stuff with me. I find it all enthralling.

 

man if this was a true passion of mine and I could find work elsewhere I would have moved.

 

Yep they all come to Washington, now Washington sucks too.

 

Financially-based law enforcement has been around for a LONG time. Go to a rich neighborhood and call the cops and see how quickly they come. Go to a ghetto, call the cops and see how long it takes them to get there, if they come at all. The fact that it is "accepted" is definitely a scary idea. You're also right that no one wins when that happens...

There is a very fine line between probable cause and profiling. The difference, in your example is perception. No one would assume a bunch of busses are going to go out and race; that is the difference here.

It's a little more complicated than that. Just the fact that the cops were up for doing this raid alone is deterrent to the street racing. Call it a 'show of force' if you will. The tickets were to deter some of the squirrelly kids from doing illegal mods to their cars (buying/accepting stolen goods, illegal tint/exhaust, etc...), with the added benefit of bringing some revenue to the department. I'd be interested in seeing how many loitering tickets were handed out as opposed to the illegal mods/tint and such. I'd bet the loitering tickets that were written were for the people that had legit parts that were unable to be dragged down for anything else.

I see your point, but think about this: Would you have preferred that the DC Sniper guys get caught while in the process of shooting someone or have them get hauled in on suspicion of being the ones going around killing people before they get the chance to strike again?

Yes, I know exactly what you're saying, but it is all about the probable cause. They have cause to believe you have more illegal parts/mods if they find one. That is why you have to keep your game tight. Make sure all your mods are legit, within the limit of the law and not stolen. Do that and you have nothing to worry about.

I'm a sucker for a good conversation. Can you see though, that the cops had reasonable probable cause to think those guys were going to be street racing? If it was a bunch of guys on foot or all driving minvans or something, the assumption would be different, don't you think?

 

seriously.. how immature can you be?? you are the same type of people that use the freedom of speech as their bible to say or write anything you wanted... you wouldn't know of a case by the supreme court of lets say... CA vs. Acevedo... it states that because cars are mobile, for which if you let them go b/c you dont have a warrant, they can either destroy the evidence or what not..a cop has rights to search ur car... if he has probable cause...

 

from what i read here, it seemed like a violation of the 4th amendmant.... but if they were on a private lot in a local mall they all at most they would get is a tresspassing ticket. but if they like what one other person said acting stupid like burnouts and stuff, so be it... or could they have been tipped off somehow?

 

Absolutely - but the difference here is that the cops didn't basically lock down neighborhoods one at a time and say, "we are going to citation everyone here for being the dc sniper until you can prove you aren't him! BTW - I hope you don't have anything else illegal going on in your house because while we are at it we will get you for that too!" I realize its a super dramatic comparison, but I'm rollin' what what you gave me hehe.

yes and no. I can see it because I would have probably looked at those guys and made that same assumption. If I were a cop though, I would hope/think that my whole job was not to jump to those sort of conclusions. Refraining from judgment would be a damned hard thing especially in that case. The other thing that occurs to me is there are only several ways that cops would have known about this meeting:

a) it was a known hangout on weekends for street tuners to loiter at illegally
b) it was arranged and there was some covert cops on the forums keeping track of when "the big hangout" was going to happen.

I'm guessing its option A. So yes, I can see how cops would come to the conclusion that known and reputed street racers were going to be there in modified cars, illegally loitering and gearing up for who knows what. I can def see the PC in that, I just wish that things didn't have to be so borderline....shady in my view. Plus, I now see that I'm actually jumping to the conclusion that cops were accusing them of street racing - no moving violations were mentioned and even with the cops accusing people of such - the citations or lack thereof suggest that they weren't looking for street racing (or even if they did they didn't find any). They were looking for modified cars. Sure they can accuse and say all the sh*t they want, cops say all kinds of sh*t.

I'm glad we can at least completely see one anothers stance on the issue. I'm not as crazy as I first came across, I just get freaked out when I see law enforcement get near the point of potentially over stepping the boundaries (this is of course just my perspective of it). I realize nothing is exactly black and white all the time when it comes to enforcing the law and breaking it, I like to see it come as close to that as possible.

 

Car "ram-rod," get it? RAM ROD. haha - Supertroopers

Cops see a wing, and a red flag goes up in their ignorant minds. Being that the majority of us drive Evos, we're not exactly under the radar.