Twin Scroll Turbos?? Monster Spool.. FACT or FICTION???
#76
Evolved Member
iTrader: (18)
So mike if you want up to 650 whp use the FP Black, which is twin scroll, and if you want big power over 800 whp use a T4 Divided Big turbo, but for 650-800whp single scroll is the best way to do it?
Everybody seems to be in agreement that these stock frame turbos spool very quick and make a lot of power, and the only way to make monster power is a twin scroll t4, what am I missing...
Somehow that doesn't make sense!
Scorke
Everybody seems to be in agreement that these stock frame turbos spool very quick and make a lot of power, and the only way to make monster power is a twin scroll t4, what am I missing...
Somehow that doesn't make sense!
Scorke
#77
Evolved Member
iTrader: (8)
I would think you would have something to gain though, as if one system does out perform the other, I would think you would leverage that information to favor one system over the other to your customers allowing you to build more powerful cars.
I don't mean to draw any question about your integrity though and believe you would perform an unbiased test. I'm just pointing out that anybody that tests this is going to end up with a mind set that will end up promoting one product over the other.
Scorke, I personally see benefits to the smaller single scroll stuff as it is lighter and more simple without really giving up much on response. Smaller turbos are pretty responsive regardless of TS vs SS. I also don't think internal wastegates are worth a ****, so these internal wastegate based TS setups don't mean much to me. The internal gates usually have a lot of problem with boost spike or slow response and then taper or creep. An external setup offers exceptional response and rock solid boost control.
I don't mean to draw any question about your integrity though and believe you would perform an unbiased test. I'm just pointing out that anybody that tests this is going to end up with a mind set that will end up promoting one product over the other.
Scorke, I personally see benefits to the smaller single scroll stuff as it is lighter and more simple without really giving up much on response. Smaller turbos are pretty responsive regardless of TS vs SS. I also don't think internal wastegates are worth a ****, so these internal wastegate based TS setups don't mean much to me. The internal gates usually have a lot of problem with boost spike or slow response and then taper or creep. An external setup offers exceptional response and rock solid boost control.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; May 2, 2010 at 03:21 PM.
#78
Evolved Member
iTrader: (21)
Now here is a Single Scroll T3 6262 Setup on 2.3L motor..
Now doesnt this simple single scroll , 1 wastegate setup appear to have the same power band??? Not to mention is revving 8000+ and not dropping much power where as the other setup is dropping power at 7500.. We also know for a fact the single scroll HTA 82 spools even faster than 6262 so can you imagine that turbo on this setup..
Mike
Now doesnt this simple single scroll , 1 wastegate setup appear to have the same power band??? Not to mention is revving 8000+ and not dropping much power where as the other setup is dropping power at 7500.. We also know for a fact the single scroll HTA 82 spools even faster than 6262 so can you imagine that turbo on this setup..
Mike
Here's my ~650whp 93 octane pump gas map @ ~26psi and to answer your question NO, it doesn't have the same power band...
As I stated in the other thread, it was 95 degrees ambient outside yesterday when we made that run and the AMS Standard Intercooler was not up to the task... The AIT where 95 degrees at the start of that run and 145 degrees at the end of the run - certainly anyone with half a peanut knows that was hurting power... No worries, we're putting on a larger intercooler in the coming weeks and we'll get it back on the dyno.
As you've been told several times already, twinscroll is superior to single scroll when it comes to drive-ability and transient response...
Last edited by Philthy748; May 2, 2010 at 04:11 PM.
#79
Evolved Member
iTrader: (21)
Mike, here's another one of your 6262 on the same fuel (Q16) but I believe this car is an EVO9 w/MIVEC on a 2.0 @ 37psi...
Chadrpm.jpg?t=1255808391
EVO8 Q16 on 2.3 @ 33psi TS40R
Chadrpm.jpg?t=1255808391
EVO8 Q16 on 2.3 @ 33psi TS40R
#82
Evolved Member
iTrader: (21)
Yes, Mike doesn't want to compare TRQ
Now let's compare the boost threshold #'s:
200whp TS40R 4050rpms
200whp 6262 4700rpms
300whp TS40R 4725rpms
300whp 6262 5200rpms
400whp TS40R 5000rpms
400whp 6262 5600rpms
500whp TS40R 5250rpms
500whp 6262 5900rpms
600whp TS40R 5500rpms
600whp 6262 6400rpms
700whp TS40R 6000rpms
673whp 6262 7100rpms
Now let's compare the boost threshold #'s:
200whp TS40R 4050rpms
200whp 6262 4700rpms
300whp TS40R 4725rpms
300whp 6262 5200rpms
400whp TS40R 5000rpms
400whp 6262 5600rpms
500whp TS40R 5250rpms
500whp 6262 5900rpms
600whp TS40R 5500rpms
600whp 6262 6400rpms
700whp TS40R 6000rpms
673whp 6262 7100rpms
Last edited by Philthy748; May 2, 2010 at 04:36 PM.
#83
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Location: Still in NC!! Loving retired life!!
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What fuel and boost level was that run done on Mike - I'm guessing E85 and ~33-35psi...? Was this also one of those FWD Facing Turbo Kits with no A/C...? What turbine housing was that car on, was it a .63...? Looks like it the way the trq in falling... Was this car an EVO8 (like my car) or an EVO9 w/MIVEC? Certainly I think we'll all come to find out that your attempt to compare dyno charts for two completely different cars and setups under totally different conditions is pointless...
Here's my ~650whp 93 octane pump gas map @ ~26psi and to answer your question NO, it doesn't have the same power band...
As I stated in the other thread, it was 95 degrees ambient outside yesterday when we made that run and the AMS Standard Intercooler was not up to the task... The AIT where 95 degrees at the start of that run and 145 degrees at the end of the run - certainly anyone with half a peanut knows that was hurting power... No worries, we're putting on a larger intercooler in the coming weeks and we'll get it back on the dyno.
As you've been told several times already, twinscroll is superior to single scroll when it comes to drive-ability and transient response...
Here's my ~650whp 93 octane pump gas map @ ~26psi and to answer your question NO, it doesn't have the same power band...
As I stated in the other thread, it was 95 degrees ambient outside yesterday when we made that run and the AMS Standard Intercooler was not up to the task... The AIT where 95 degrees at the start of that run and 145 degrees at the end of the run - certainly anyone with half a peanut knows that was hurting power... No worries, we're putting on a larger intercooler in the coming weeks and we'll get it back on the dyno.
As you've been told several times already, twinscroll is superior to single scroll when it comes to drive-ability and transient response...
Josh
#84
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Still in NC!! Loving retired life!!
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Yes, Mike doesn't want to compare TRQ
Now let's compare the boost threshold #'s:
200whp TS40R 4050rpms
200whp 6262 4700rpms
300whp TS40R 4725rpms
300whp 6262 5200rpms
400whp TS40R 5000rpms
400whp 6262 5600rpms
500whp TS40R 5250rpms
500whp 6262 5900rpms
600whp TS40R 5500rpms
600whp 6262 6400rpms
700whp TS40R 6000rpms
673whp 6262 7100rpms
Now let's compare the boost threshold #'s:
200whp TS40R 4050rpms
200whp 6262 4700rpms
300whp TS40R 4725rpms
300whp 6262 5200rpms
400whp TS40R 5000rpms
400whp 6262 5600rpms
500whp TS40R 5250rpms
500whp 6262 5900rpms
600whp TS40R 5500rpms
600whp 6262 6400rpms
700whp TS40R 6000rpms
673whp 6262 7100rpms
Now that is data that I can digest! LOL (it's dinner time! Nom, Nom, Nom!)
Josh
#88
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (6)
Folks:
We can't realistically compare engines of different displacement.
We can't realistically compare different turbos.
We can't realistically compare factory placement manifolds with FF stuff.
Etc.
There are just too many differences. Trying to draw comparisons between different hardware just doesn't work.
We can't realistically compare engines of different displacement.
We can't realistically compare different turbos.
We can't realistically compare factory placement manifolds with FF stuff.
Etc.
There are just too many differences. Trying to draw comparisons between different hardware just doesn't work.
#89
Evolving Member
iTrader: (1)
2004 Subaru 777 04 STi 06-17-2009 05:00 pm
EFI Logics
ATP 35R Stock fit turbo, EFI Logics Custom Front mount, APS 3.5 inch exhaust, DW 900cc Injectors, Custom Swirl pot with EFI Logics fuel system, Invidia EL Header, Cosworth 272 Cams, tune with Cobb Accessport - ST2 Class restricted power 20psi only
RPM | HP | Torque | AFR | Boost |
2850 | 76.00 | 141.00 | 12.70 | 1.70 |
2900 | 83.00 | 150.00 | 12.30 | 2.20 |
2950 | 89.00 | 159.00 | 11.70 | 2.80 |
3000 | 95.00 | 167.00 | 11.40 | 3.30 |
3050 | 100.00 | 174.00 | 11.20 | 3.90 |
3100 | 106.00 | 180.00 | 11.10 | 4.50 |
3150 | 111.00 | 186.00 | 11.10 | 5.10 |
3200 | 117.00 | 192.00 | 11.10 | 5.70 |
3250 | 123.00 | 199.00 | 11.10 | 6.20 |
3300 | 129.00 | 205.00 | 11.10 | 6.80 |
3350 | 134.00 | 212.00 | 11.20 | 7.40 |
3400 | 140.00 | 218.00 | 11.30 | 8.00 |
3450 | 147.00 | 224.00 | 11.40 | 8.50 |
3500 | 153.00 | 231.00 | 11.40 | 9.10 |
3550 | 160.00 | 238.00 | 11.40 | 9.70 |
3600 | 167.00 | 245.00 | 11.40 | 10.30 |
3650 | 175.00 | 253.00 | 11.40 | 10.90 |
3700 | 183.00 | 261.00 | 11.30 | 11.50 |
3750 | 192.00 | 270.00 | 11.30 | 12.20 |
3800 | 200.00 | 277.00 | 11.20 | 12.90 |
3850 | 207.00 | 284.00 | 11.20 | 13.60 |
3900 | 215.00 | 292.00 | 11.20 | 14.30 |
3950 | 224.00 | 299.00 | 11.10 | 15.00 |
4000 | 231.00 | 305.00 | 11.10 | 15.70 |
4050 | 239.00 | 312.00 | 11.00 | 16.40 |
4100 | 248.00 | 320.00 | 11.00 | 17.10 |
4150 | 260.00 | 331.00 | 10.90 | 17.70 |
4200 | 272.00 | 341.00 | 10.90 | 18.30 |
4250 | 282.00 | 350.00 | 10.90 | 18.80 |
4300 | 292.00 | 358.00 | 10.90 | 19.20 |
4350 | 301.00 | 366.00 | 10.90 | 19.60 |
4400 | 310.00 | 373.00 | 10.90 | 20.00 |
4450 | 319.00 | 379.00 | 11.00 | 20.30 |
4500 | 326.00 | 384.00 | 11.00 | 20.50 |
4550 | 331.00 | 385.00 | 11.00 | 20.70 |
4600 | 336.00 | 386.00 | 11.10 | 20.90 |
4650 | 341.00 | 388.00 | 11.10 | 21.00 |
4700 | 345.00 | 388.00 | 11.10 | 21.20 |
4750 | 349.00 | 388.00 | 11.20 | 21.30 |
4800 | 353.00 | 389.00 | 11.20 | 21.30 |
4850 | 357.00 | 389.00 | 11.20 | 21.40 |
4900 | 361.00 | 389.00 | 11.30 | 21.50 |
4950 | 364.00 | 389.00 | 11.30 | 21.50 |
5000 | 367.00 | 388.00 | 11.30 | 21.60 |
5050 | 371.00 | 388.00 | 11.30 | 21.60 |
5100 | 374.00 | 388.00 | 11.30 | 21.60 |
5150 | 377.00 | 387.00 | 11.40 | 21.60 |
5200 | 380.00 | 386.00 | 11.40 | 21.50 |
5250 | 382.00 | 385.00 | 11.40 | 21.50 |
5300 | 385.00 | 384.00 | 11.40 | 21.40 |
5350 | 387.00 | 383.00 | 11.40 | 21.40 |
5400 | 389.00 | 381.00 | 11.40 | 21.30 |
5450 | 391.00 | 379.00 | 11.40 | 21.10 |
5500 | 393.00 | 378.00 | 11.40 | 21.00 |
5550 | 394.00 | 376.00 | 11.40 | 20.90 |
5600 | 396.00 | 373.00 | 11.40 | 20.80 |
5650 | 397.00 | 371.00 | 11.40 | 20.60 |
5700 | 397.00 | 368.00 | 11.40 | 20.50 |
5750 | 397.00 | 364.00 | 11.40 | 20.40 |
5800 | 396.00 | 361.00 | 11.30 | 20.20 |
5850 | 396.00 | 357.00 | 11.30 | 20.10 |
5900 | 395.00 | 354.00 | 11.20 | 20.00 |
5950 | 395.00 | 350.00 | 11.20 | 19.90 |
6000 | 394.00 | 347.00 | 11.20 | 19.90 |
6050 | 394.00 | 344.00 | 11.10 | 19.80 |
6100 | 394.00 | 340.00 | 11.10 | 19.80 |
6150 | 393.00 | 337.00 | 11.10 | 19.70 |
6200 | 392.00 | 334.00 | 11.10 | 19.70 |
6250 | 392.00 | 331.00 | 11.10 | 19.60 |
6300 | 391.00 | 328.00 | 11.10 | 19.60 |
6350 | 391.00 | 324.00 | 11.00 | 19.60 |
6400 | 390.00 | 322.00 | 11.10 | 19.60 |
6450 | 390.00 | 319.00 | 11.10 | 19.60 |
6500 | 390.00 | 316.00 | 11.10 | 19.70 |
6550 | 390.00 | 314.00 | 11.10 | 19.70 |
6600 | 389.00 | 311.00 | 11.10 | 19.70 |
6650 | 388.00 | 308.00 | 11.10 | 19.80 |
6700 | 387.00 | 304.00 | 11.00 | 19.80 |
2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STi 07-24-2009 05:00 pm
Ken Zielinski
Full Race Twin Scroll GT35R, Twin 44mm EWG, Perrin catback, Full Race FMIC with Rotated Intake Manifold, DW850cc, KS Tech 83mm Intake, Cobb V2 AP Tuned by EFI Logics 21psi PUMP GAS!
RPM | HP | Torque | AFR | Boost |
2700 | 78.00 | 152.00 | 14.90 | 2.30 |
2750 | 81.00 | 155.00 | 14.80 | 2.60 |
2800 | 85.00 | 159.00 | 14.90 | 2.90 |
2850 | 88.00 | 164.00 | 14.90 | 3.20 |
2900 | 92.00 | 168.00 | 14.90 | 3.50 |
2950 | 97.00 | 173.00 | 14.80 | 3.80 |
3000 | 101.00 | 178.00 | 14.60 | 4.10 |
3050 | 105.00 | 182.00 | 14.40 | 4.40 |
3100 | 109.00 | 186.00 | 14.30 | 4.70 |
3150 | 113.00 | 190.00 | 14.10 | 5.00 |
3200 | 117.00 | 193.00 | 13.90 | 5.30 |
3250 | 121.00 | 196.00 | 13.70 | 5.60 |
3300 | 125.00 | 200.00 | 13.50 | 6.00 |
3350 | 129.00 | 203.00 | 13.30 | 6.30 |
3400 | 133.00 | 207.00 | 13.10 | 6.70 |
3450 | 137.00 | 210.00 | 12.90 | 7.10 |
3500 | 142.00 | 214.00 | 12.70 | 7.50 |
3550 | 147.00 | 218.00 | 12.50 | 8.00 |
3600 | 152.00 | 222.00 | 12.40 | 8.40 |
3650 | 157.00 | 226.00 | 12.20 | 8.90 |
3700 | 162.00 | 230.00 | 12.10 | 9.40 |
3750 | 167.00 | 235.00 | 11.90 | 9.90 |
3800 | 173.00 | 240.00 | 11.80 | 10.40 |
3850 | 178.00 | 244.00 | 11.70 | 11.00 |
3900 | 184.00 | 248.00 | 11.60 | 11.50 |
3950 | 190.00 | 253.00 | 11.50 | 12.10 |
4000 | 196.00 | 259.00 | 11.40 | 12.70 |
4050 | 203.00 | 264.00 | 11.30 | 13.30 |
4100 | 210.00 | 270.00 | 11.30 | 14.00 |
4150 | 217.00 | 276.00 | 11.20 | 14.60 |
4200 | 225.00 | 283.00 | 11.10 | 15.30 |
4250 | 234.00 | 290.00 | 11.10 | 16.00 |
4300 | 243.00 | 297.00 | 11.10 | 16.70 |
4350 | 251.00 | 304.00 | 11.00 | 17.30 |
4400 | 260.00 | 311.00 | 11.00 | 18.00 |
4450 | 268.00 | 318.00 | 11.00 | 18.50 |
4500 | 276.00 | 324.00 | 11.00 | 19.10 |
4550 | 285.00 | 330.00 | 11.00 | 19.60 |
4600 | 293.00 | 336.00 | 11.00 | 20.00 |
4650 | 300.00 | 341.00 | 11.00 | 20.30 |
4700 | 307.00 | 345.00 | 11.00 | 20.60 |
4750 | 313.00 | 348.00 | 11.10 | 20.90 |
4800 | 319.00 | 351.00 | 11.10 | 21.10 |
4850 | 325.00 | 354.00 | 11.10 | 21.30 |
4900 | 330.00 | 356.00 | 11.10 | 21.40 |
4950 | 334.00 | 357.00 | 11.10 | 21.50 |
5000 | 338.00 | 358.00 | 11.10 | 21.50 |
5050 | 342.00 | 358.00 | 11.20 | 21.60 |
5100 | 346.00 | 359.00 | 11.20 | 21.60 |
5150 | 350.00 | 359.00 | 11.20 | 21.70 |
5200 | 354.00 | 359.00 | 11.20 | 21.70 |
5250 | 357.00 | 359.00 | 11.20 | 21.80 |
5300 | 361.00 | 360.00 | 11.20 | 21.80 |
5350 | 364.00 | 360.00 | 11.20 | 21.90 |
5400 | 368.00 | 360.00 | 11.20 | 21.90 |
5450 | 371.00 | 360.00 | 11.20 | 22.00 |
5500 | 374.00 | 360.00 | 11.20 | 22.00 |
5550 | 377.00 | 359.00 | 11.20 | 22.00 |
5600 | 380.00 | 358.00 | 11.20 | 22.10 |
5650 | 383.00 | 358.00 | 11.20 | 22.10 |
5700 | 385.00 | 357.00 | 11.20 | 22.10 |
5750 | 387.00 | 356.00 | 11.10 | 22.10 |
5800 | 390.00 | 355.00 | 11.10 | 22.10 |
5850 | 391.00 | 353.00 | 11.10 | 22.00 |
5900 | 393.00 | 352.00 | 11.10 | 22.00 |
5950 | 394.00 | 350.00 | 11.10 | 22.00 |
6000 | 396.00 | 348.00 | 11.00 | 21.90 |
6050 | 397.00 | 347.00 | 11.00 | 21.90 |
6100 | 398.00 | 345.00 | 11.00 | 21.90 |
6150 | 400.00 | 343.00 | 11.00 | 21.80 |
6200 | 401.00 | 341.00 | 11.00 | 21.80 |
6250 | 401.00 | 339.00 | 11.40 | 21.80 |
6300 | 402.00 | 337.00 | 11.40 | 21.80 |
6350 | 402.00 | 334.00 | 11.40 | 21.90 |
6400 | 402.00 | 332.00 | 11.40 | 21.90 |
6450 | 403.00 | 329.00 | 11.40 | 22.00 |
6500 | 403.00 | 327.00 | 11.40 | 22.10 |
6550 | 402.00 | 324.00 | 11.40 | 22.20 |
6600 | 402.00 | 321.00 | 11.40 | 22.20 |
6650 | 402.00 | 319.00 | 11.40 | 22.30 |
6700 | 402.00 | 317.00 | 11.40 | 22.40 |
6750 | 402.00 | 314.00 | 11.40 | 22.50 |
6800 | 401.00 | 311.00 | 11.50 | 22.60 |
6850 | 401.00 | 309.00 | 11.50 | 22.70 |