waht is unbelievable about 440 with stock spool... there's a few stock turbos doin' that (admittedly with a ton of work done but that's been done already)... from car to car you can have deviations of up to 30hp... too much jumping.

and who's takin' off their intake or whatever when they're dynoing? maybe that was just a bad call.

ALSO... why don't anyone else get heat for the numbers they advertised and the COUNTLESS people that are out there that prolly don't have the same or greater numbers. i read low numbers ALL the time online, so often i don't even pay attention... cuz there's always some excuse, dyno, hot day, boost leak, lallalalalal why is this getting so much attention?

or does everyone get perfect performance outta every part made from every other person, right out the box... first run for month it's released.

 

What is unbelieveable is that it is claimed on stock cams and stock intake with is utter rubbish on that particular turbo


The real interesting thing about all of this is that I was just reviewing the FORCED PERFOMANCE web page and THEY are totally realistic about the claimed results :


NOTICE IT SAYS "significantly improves power over stock turbo at boost pressures ABOVE 22 psi." - To me a very honest and straight forward claim which is reasonable


It seems that Forced Performance is honest and fair in its claims about the WR

 

The NS111 is a beauty of modern aerodynamics. Somebody needs to machine a GT series cartridge into the stock housings if possible and go from there.

 

BTW - FP has JUST put that under the description within this week. Last week it did NOT say that....

 

Pretty much just as sick of the current credibility lynch mob, as the all initial hype. I'd really like to hear from Z, FP, and Switzer themselves.

It's never as good as the hype and never as bad.

Al on Evom credibilty police detail ??!!!! Don't read into this, just saying some variety of controversy has historicaly followed your name as well.

 

I usually avoid posting, but there seems to be a group of people hovering over any thread regarding this turbo trying to make sure their names get spelled correctly. There is lots of misinformation on this board about our little White Rabbit upgrade turbocharger. The internet blog has stayed well ahead of our own internal webmaster as far as info releases have gone.

First off, never before have I encountered such a well organized group of people so tickled to slam a specific product before in my life, to the point where they go out of their way to perform or offer to perform "free testing" so they can jump up and down happily pointing out that a car was missing power.

This unit does exactly what it was intended to do, get the most possible power out of a bolt on turbocharger utilizing the stock sized TD05H turbine wheel in a lightweight TiAl form.

There is only one way to get a TD05H turbine wheel to give up some more power, and that is to spin it faster. The stock compressor wheel gives up at about 140-150krpm and will not readily run more than 26-27psi of intake manifold boost even in the midrange of its RPM band. The TD05H turbine wheel will continue to flow additional air all the way to about 170krpm. That small available flow potential is all that exists from Mitsubishi as far as an inherent shortcoming in the stock turbo.

Those are the limitations of the stock parts; those are the constraints that any upgrade turbo must live with.

Our approach was to make a CW that that does not require as much shaft torque as the 16g6 in order to go beyond 140krpm; this allows a little more air to pass through the Smallish TD05H turbine wheel. This is why the compressor wheel has a very small hub and 5 blades as opposed to the older 20g and 21g designs which use 6 blades and larger cross section hubs.

What many people don’t realize is that the hub diameter/profile of the compressor wheel is just as important to the flow rate of the CW as the outer diameter/profile. Using a much thinner hub and 1 less blade pair allows the compressor to move more air, and spin at a higher rpm given the limited amount of shaft torque available from the smallish TD05H turbine wheel. The short and sweet is that our wheel has a smaller hub and a smaller outer diameter than the 20g wheel and as a result will spin up to a higher RPM given the same limited amount of shaft power available from the TD05H turbine wheel.

In order to see any of these benefits, you must be operating outside the range of what the factory equipped 16g6 can provide. The factory 16g6 begins to operate outside its envelope around 5,000 engine RPM and 26psi of boost pressure. By the time you get to 7500rpm this envelope has reduced to about 18psi.

This is why most users of the turbocharger see a greater improvement at 7500rpm than they do at 5000rpm (unless they are on race gas and letting it spike to 27+psi). The peak HP increase is less than the HP increase at 7500rpm because the turbocharger works better and better the farther you get outside the operation envelope of the 16g6.

Peak HP increase of 25-35whp and 7500rpm increases of 50-70whp are typical when maxing this unit out. This is the result that we observed on EVERY ONE of the prototypes tested, and this is what I personally told everyone that purchased the turbocharger at the time they placed their orders. Some people did not speak to a sales rep when they bought their turbo, I guess some people saw a 441whp "let's see if it blows up" glory pull and thought they could do better so they just bought one no questions asked.

If any of you think that you can do an AEM tune up as good as Tym Switzer, you should have taken the blue pill from Morphious and woke up back in your bed instead of following the rabbit down the hole. We went to Tym because he has always been the guy that leaves NOTHING on the table when it comes to make power.

In Bushurs own words from Oct 2003 on EvoM:

“Tym just called me from the track. It is a beautiful Friday afternoon and some local guys had the track rented and gave us an invitation to come out.

I was busy so I asked Tym to take the EVO out and give it a shot. He just called, like I said, and said he just ran the first pass. I do think we have a stock turbo record here!!

1.62 sixty foot time

7.46 @ 92.15 at the 1/8th mile

11.65 @ 117.88 mph at the 1/4 mile


This is his first pass today. He is going to give me another call if he betters that. He told me on the phone the AFR was 10.0:1 going through the traps and he was going to do some tuning on it, he feels this is why the MPH is a little low.

The car has all of our parts on it, found on our site, through Stage 4. We currently have the AEM on it, the AFC is not being used.

The driveabililty of this thing is better than stock, it has never ran this nice.

Just a side note, GREAT JOB TYM ON THE TUNING AND DRIVING, YOU DA MAN!!”

and later that same day:

“I am just amazed what knowledge and time has brought this new development to. Tym has done a kick *** job on tuning the AEM along with the many other things he has contributed to this project (like todays 11.65 pass that he drove). It is an honor to have him as not only an employee but a good friend.

Thanks for reading guys,

David Buschur”

Looks like Tym knew what he was doing in Oct 2003.


I'm sorry, but I do not have the time to check back on these threads throughout the day. If anyone would like to talk further about this turbo or any of the other turbochargers in this lineup, please give me a call. You may be surprised what you hear straight from the horses mouth.

To repeat, I apologize in advance for not responding to these forum threads, but time just does not allow for it. If you want to know something just give us a call.

Thanks for the space

Robert Young

 

Gee, does anyone else feel like that entire post was directed right at me?

I have done nothing but answer questions directed at me in here or offered free tuning and dyno time to prove the turbo. Also said I don't want to see it fail. I don't feel the turbo is getting a fair shake as NOBODY has dyno'd on the same day with the stock turbo and then the WR, until someone does with a good tuner there to help nobody is going to know the real deal or results on this turbo. Putting a car on the dyno and running it at a shop one day with one guy tuning it and at another shop another day with another turbo with someone else tuning it isn't doing anyone any good. Putting the WR turbo on a car and just making pulls and numbers and having NO comparison to the stock turbo also doesn't do anyone any good.

All I was offering is a same day pump gas and race gas tune for a stock turbo set up EVO and then with the WR. Going to donate my time and dyno to do a proper test.

WTF?

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

This just posted yesterday by Dave. I don't think he or anyone else here has in any way tried to put down the FP Unit.
As a matter of fact I think they all have High hopes for it and want it to work as you state above.
As far as Tym is concerned, I haven't seen a negative post toward him at all from the Buschur camp.
My two cents on your post above Robert.
We all know of your products and the performance that comes with them. I am sure that this is another one of those successful ventures. Keep up the good work.

 

Thats the explanation I was looking for, we need to post area under the curve dyno data....rather than peak, I dont drive at xxxx rpm all day I need to know real world info......I cant remember my calc right now so I forget how to figure the area under the curve

 

I just re-read the original WR thread and both of the new threads, and I have to say that yes David you did imply that Tym may have manipulated the results of his dyno posts, which he explained as he always uses SAE corrected. Also Zeus, Robert, Tym, and Fast Frank are the only ones in over a 100 pages of posts have said anything worth while backed up by dyno sheets and explanations. Al, also has stated that the 441 video on switzers site was not a realistic number and also referred to it as a banzai pull...which is probably going to be the best number from the WR that I expect to see from any tuner with the supporting mods that Tym used on his family driven evo. Tym should have the best numbers for this as he is a great tuner and I am sure he will have flashes worked out soon so anyone looking at this turbo, please filter the out the hype and take this turbo for what it has shown so far and just read in the relevant posts and you can see what this turbo can do for you. Why am I even writing this? I just want to let the evo world know how talented Tym is and just wanted to state what has already been said in a filtered manor.

 

I am glad you posted the first part of this post - as it helps better explain the benefits and reasonable design expectations for the WR. My reading of your well reasoned post helps me to understand what to expect and the type of user that will benefot from the turbo. This type of information is very helpful. This will also serve to explain why the tuners who have looked at the WR may not have seen power gains thus far - (possibly not running enough boost).

As for the second part of your post, hopefully you will reach the conclusion that such "lets see if it blows up" glory pulls are not a good idea to promote as a marketing tool. Frankly, anyone spending $1500 on a turbo and running high boost will probably have cam shafts and an intake so maybe it would have been better to test for maximum power with a car configured that way. I think the part that peeked my interest in all of this was the ironic contardiction of the wild and outrageous 441 whp claim combined with no tangible evidence of any quantifiable power gains from independant tuners.

I still fail to see the relivance of a "lets see if it blows up" dyno pull. I don't know what that means to the customers and what that means about the turbo.

Finally, I think it is regratable that you choose to attack Mr. Buschur who did not have one bad word to say about you or your product and was only offering to help test the product - for free.

 

And that is why I got the WR and love it

 

Al, stop arguing with all of these real tuners

 

So someone give it to me straight, is this turbo a waste for me? I do NOT plan to run race gas. My car is a strictly 93-94 octane/23psi car. I have proper bolt-ons as you can see in my sig and my current dyno (before the FMIC) was 346whp. I dont want to put this turbo if it wont yeild me reasonable results for the money. I was under the impression it would be a better pump gas turbo than the stocker (20-30whp) @23psi but Im feeling its not now.... so what do you think I should do? We arent talking just $1600 for the turbo, but $350 for a reflash and the $250 I spent on injectors, so $2200....

I wish I could do a before and after dyno with the turbo, but that entails installingt he turbo (now making it used), installing injectors, tuning it - and what if I dont like the results? Spend more $ uninstalling etc. Ya know.... the position I am in sucks

 

Im in the same boat as soon2be, now as someone with limited turbo knowledge I get the feeling this is a great race gas turbo, but for street cars its not a huge gain....Since I am part of the target customers ( I want a STREET car lots of power all over the rev range on pump not some laggy car that makes HUGE hp up top, think FQ-400) Id like to know the answer.....from what I have read ( after filtering out all the junk that is) its not for me