Has anyone seen any kind of data on the long-term effects of E85 use? I've found high mileage use - meaning many miles over a few years. But I've not seen long-term use - meaning many miles over many years. I ran across this quote on a blog discussing the new carbon fiber process developed by Toyota. Someone brought this up out of the blue.


"What they really should be trying to do is come up with a solution to the problems that ethanol is causing on rubber seals, o-rings and fuel lines. And if you haven't come across this problem yet......trust me you will. I have worked in the auto industry in all three areas (regular production, race, and custom). And don't get me wrong I am all for alternative fuels. But when you put the cart before the horse...you will always crash. Ethanol is a great alternative fuel, but the problem is the same properties that make it a great additive also have one major flaw. As ethanol helps separate water from your fuel and increase performance, it also dries the rubber o-ring, seals and fuel lines out at an alarming pace. Kudos to Lexus (A.K.A Toyota) for developing this new technology. But if you really want to impress a mechanic....create a better rubber that can withstand ethanol's negative effects."

 

I'm no scientist, but I think the guy you quoted might be wrong. My understanding is that the ethanol causes the rubber, grommets, orings, what ever you want to label it/them as to swell, not to dry out.

30 years ago when ethanol was brought about, there were problems with this and the big auto manufacturers claim that they have added the needed elastomers to the plastics that will withstand the abuse from ethanol.

Here is some reading material for you

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/39130.pdf
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/page/-/rfa...go.pdf?nocdn=1
http://fbhvc.co.uk/bio-fuels/

 

Im on the same boat too. I want to switch to E85 but im afraid of the side effects that ethanol along with other alternative fuels pack. Since I DD mine, Im also curious about long-term effects.

 

Jim- I can only speak for what I personally have. When the guy says long term- not sure what he means there since in many markets even E10 has not been around more than 3 years- while in others like Denver and Minnesota - a very long time.

I have a '96 5.7L Siverado with 233,000 miles (of which the last 150,000 miles has been all E20 and higher) - no mods, original fuel lines and injectors, did have to replace the fuel pump at 229,000 miles due to marginal pressure (5 # low on start). The body is going to fall apart on this thing before anything fuel related occurs it seems. It has been up to E50 a few times. Has towed trailers 1/2 it's life.

I have have an '04 Saab 2L turbo Aero sport which only drinks E20- again no mods- but this only has 87,000 miles and 5 year history on E20 (some E30). No issues.

I had a 2000 Yukon 5.3 L non-flex which only got E20. Did put a fuel pump in it at 170,000 miles but this pump was horribly loud when I got this heap at 70,000 miles and they were known to have issues with this. Pump was replaced due to marginal pressure. Traded in on a new car for wife.

I have a small fleet of FFVs (Impala's and Taurus). All are near 200,000 miles on E85- the Taurus is still going at 240,000 miles. Not a single seal, injector- nothing fuel system related has been replaced. These are newer- 2005 is oldest, 2008 is newest.

I get into a lot of the former big 3 automaker's dealerships to do training on E85. I always ask what problems they have seen. I have yet to hear about seals. If anything comes up it is usually related to issues with ECU algorithms written for early (2005-6) FFVs after the alcohol sensor was dropped. The most common issue is the car owner that puts E85 full strength in a non-FFV or non-adapted car and the ECU simply posts the lean code due to out of range-- or a hard start, stall in extreme cases.
Yet we know many folks use E85 in kit adapted or non-adapted cars all the time and have done so for a good while here where E85 has been around for 6 years.

I had one friend with a "$100 car" that was a old Geo if I recall that did have seals let go on injectors after he ran straight E85 in it for a couple years. That is the only one I have heard of. He went down and picked up seals that matched FFV injector seals and that took care of it. That though would not have been cool to be dribbling fuel over a hot engine. Again- that was one of 1,000's. This could have been an age of seal and era of materials used related thing.

One clue about the guy who commented might be this: "As ethanol helps separate water from your fuel" -- uh no-- while he might have inadvertantly had a typo here so I will give him some benefit of the doubt- he has not thought about why one put "Heet" in cars for years when gas was ethanol free. He would not be the first- I still see people dumping that stuff in E10 not thinking about what Heet is and how much more alcohol is in E10 than the 2 pints of methanol or isopropyl they throw in their cars.

 

do a search, this has been reviewed in the past with good results. E85 over time acts like an engine cleaner and upon engine tear down, the internals of the combustion chamber were cleaner then the rest of the engine.

 

ChrisW, the issue is not the cleanliness of the engine, which has been well-documented. The concern is the potential of ethanol breaking down inadequate rubber seals and other rubber pieces involved in the fuel delivery.

Concerning the breakdown/failure of rubber due to ethanol; I have not read of a single case of this happening yet. Maybe because the Evo community is somewhat new to running E85?

 

There are several e85 evos in the SF Bay Area, many of which have been running it for 2+ years with no issues other than the fated "injector gunk". Joshesh has probably put about 40k miles on his car almost exclusively on e85.

 

i agree with 1outlaw's assessment. i can add that both epdm and viton are fully compatible with 100% ethanol. methanol, however, is a different story. its pretty hard on rubber.

 

RJ,

I actually spoke with Josh briefly about his maintenance on E85. He said about once a year he will replace the injector o-rings because they get in his words "crispy". I assume that means they harden and dry out a little bit and to maintain a good seal he replaces them once a year along with new plugs. At that time it is also good to check for the "gunk" and get the injectors cleaned/flowed.

For all the benefits that E85 provides, I find that a very small and cheap maintenance cost.

 

my old car, R34 GTT has been on E85 for 2.5years, maybe even pushing 3 - very very little 98 unleaded time in there, almost exclusively E85

no issues at all to report from the new owner - this is a 1998 car as well

 

The seals and o-rings and lines are obviously getting better via better rubber design.

 

Has anyone let their car sit for awhile after using e85? My friend's car suffered a headgasket failure and built up the engine. The car probably sat about 3-4 months with over a half tank of e85 in it. Now whenever he fills up the car has a terrible time starting. Could the ethanol have broken something down and it all gets stirred up when he fills the tank? We're gonna start by pulling the pump and checking the filter, past that I'm not sure.

 

25000 miles of e85 here on an 06 and no problems

 

Speaking from an OEM level, when engine tear downs are done for benchmarking we often have one or two engines that were ran on the dyno for a life cycle on e85(100k miles). these engines show accelerated barring wear, and more cylinder scoring.

While the EXACT cause is still being investigated the initial thought is the ethanol is washing the oil/gasoline out of the barrings and off the cylinder walls.

This is not catastrophic failure, it does lead to some heavily accelerated wear patterns.

On that same token, i still plan on running my IX on e-85.

 

im currently deployed right now. around how much are you guys paying a gallon for E-85?