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Looking for logs to correlate load to massair/rev

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Old Sep 28, 2007, 01:01 PM
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Here is the gear before the shift (don't know which gear), with RPM on the X axis:

Attached Thumbnails Looking for logs to correlate load to massair/rev-jb-2ng-gear.jpg  
Old Sep 28, 2007, 04:36 PM
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I don't understand why the load value is what it is for 2000hz+ airflow/rpm.

Did you scale the MAF size?
Old Sep 28, 2007, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by C6C6CH3vo
I don't understand why the load value is what it is for 2000hz+ airflow/rpm.

Did you scale the MAF size?
I assume you are asking John this question, but it all looks about right to me. You have to remember that load is proportional to Hz / RPM, including baro and temp.

So, a particular Hz number, like 2000Hz, doesn't necessarily mean anything until you look at what RPM it is at (and temp and baro).


Eric

Last edited by l2r99gst; Sep 28, 2007 at 04:46 PM.
Old Sep 28, 2007, 05:07 PM
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For a quick sanity check, you can use some math for the airflow through an engine:

Airflow= PR[CID*RPM*VE/(1728*2)]

21 psi = (21+14.7)/14.7 = 2.43 PR

2.43[122*7500*.9/(1728*2)]= 579.02CFM (assuming 90% VE at 7500 for his setup)

to convert to lbs/min from CFM, there is an equation that incorporates temp, but a standard temp approx is CFM*.07

579.02 * .07 = 40.53 lb/min

So, that is pretty close. With all of the assumptions above, I would say everything is looking pretty good.


For a better check, we can do the same math at 5500 RPM, where we know the VE should be about 100%. He said his boost peaked about 23 psi there:

23 psi = (23+14.7)/14.7 = 2.56 PR

2.56[122*5500*1/(1728*2)]= 497.04 CFM

to convert to lbs/min from CFM, there is an equation that incorporates temp, but a standard temp approx is CFM*.07

497.04 * .07 = 34.79 lb/min


All of those points seem to line up nicely with his data and the graphs.


Eric

Last edited by l2r99gst; Sep 28, 2007 at 05:14 PM.
Old Sep 29, 2007, 10:43 AM
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C6, the MAF has not been rescaled since the addition of a Buschur pipe and filter. I logged it a couple of times and it didnt seem to alter the trims much more than 2-3% (compared to some I have seen that were as high as 30% total correction). The Apexi MAF cone filter is 8% for comparison.

Gears used were 1-2 (it was kind of in town) as I recall since my peak speed wasnt over 65mph. Also this is a Green and when FP initially released it they listed that datalogging with an Emanage showed 2000hz +/- on pump gas with pretty much the same values for boost. Mods might have something to do with, as well as air density?

Edit- Barometer showed a linear drop from 103-98.5 by 7500 andthe air temp was logged at 76 dropping to 67*.

Last edited by JohnBradley; Sep 29, 2007 at 11:21 AM.
Old Sep 30, 2007, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnBradley
C6, the MAF has not been rescaled since the addition of a Buschur pipe and filter. I logged it a couple of times and it didnt seem to alter the trims much more than 2-3% (compared to some I have seen that were as high as 30% total correction). The Apexi MAF cone filter is 8% for comparison.

Gears used were 1-2 (it was kind of in town) as I recall since my peak speed wasnt over 65mph. Also this is a Green and when FP initially released it they listed that datalogging with an Emanage showed 2000hz +/- on pump gas with pretty much the same values for boost. Mods might have something to do with, as well as air density?

Edit- Barometer showed a linear drop from 103-98.5 by 7500 andthe air temp was logged at 76 dropping to 67*.
Had a comparison between a GT3071, 20G LT and the JDM TD05-155G (Evo 9 MR RS) ..

Thanks Eric for the calculations.. Interesting results ..
If there's anything to reinforce his, theory .. this was it .. different cars (3 evos (7/8/9), 1 airtrek turbo ) different MAF frequencies(as high as 400hz difference!), same boost levels (26psi) .. 'only' about 1-2lbs//min difference between the turbos ..

I'll post the CSVs if you're interested .. though you'll have to wait until I can get the laptop ..

Last edited by gunzo; Sep 30, 2007 at 03:40 PM.
Old Sep 30, 2007, 09:06 PM
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Yes please.
Old Oct 2, 2007, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnBradley
EvoScan .99 defs-

<DataListItem DataLog="Y" Color="" Display="g/rev" LogReference="gRev" RequestID="00" Eval="[Load]/95" Unit="g/rev" MetricEval="" MetricUnit="" ResponseBytes="1" GaugeMin="0" GaugeMax="12" ChartMin="0" ChartMax="12" ScalingFactor="1" Notes=""/>

<DataListItem DataLog="Y" Color="" Display="Lbs/min" LogReference="lbs/min" RequestID="00" Eval="([gRev]*[rpm])/454" Unit="lbs" MetricEval="" MetricUnit="" ResponseBytes="1" GaugeMin="0" GaugeMax="65" ChartMin="0" ChartMax="65" ScalingFactor="1" Notes=""/>

For reference I renamed 2 byte load to just "Load" so you may need to change that in my def or change your 2 byte load tag. A big thanks to Bez and Eric for coming up with a formula that my little brain could figure out how to implement. I didnt have any time to test this at anything other than idle so there may be some bugs that I havent discovered yet.

enjoy


Works well! Thanks JB
Old Oct 2, 2007, 10:55 AM
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No probs Ralph ,wait till you see the next level of what this will allow. Its currently being tested, but once thats done we'll (everyone currently involved) post up.
Old Oct 2, 2007, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnBradley
...wait till you see the next level of what this will allow. Its currently being tested, but once thats done we'll (everyone currently involved) post up.
Volumetric efficiency map? Boost estimate?

Those are a couple of things that I can think of off the top of my head that would be doable. The equations I posted a few posts up can be used to find those.

What are you guys doing?


Eric
Old Oct 2, 2007, 11:11 AM
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I am trying to get Evoscan to report max horsepower and torque like DSMlink based mostly on airflow. I can look at a 2 byte airflow log and see where peak power is based on when it tapers, peak torque is pretty easy since you can base it off peak load. The thing that will hang me up is getting some sort of script written to see that the log no longer shows a 30hz jump between cells and its now 5-10hz/cell. It seems based off of dyno sheets and logs from the same car (thanks a ton Kreionic) that this works fairly well.

Based on this, one of the logs he sent me showed peak power at 6300 (fairly close) and peak torque at 3500. I am at work right now, but when I get home later tonight I will PM/email the log and xml (not that its complicated). Ideas on airflow taper vs actual power peak?

Kreionic's dyno sheet that fits surprisingly well with my current understanding:

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=281107

Last edited by JohnBradley; Oct 2, 2007 at 11:20 AM.
Old Oct 2, 2007, 11:25 AM
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Well, using g/rev and load (llbs/min) may get you a little close. Hz can change depending on temp and baro. G/rev will follow your torque curve and lb/min will sort of follow your HP curve.

The taper is because of volumetric efficiency decreasing after around 5000 RPM or so. If you first interpreted the data to get your VE curve, then you may be able to use that in your HP calculations. Without seeing the data, I can only speculate at this time.


I'm not sure if you use or have used DSMLink, but this is how DSMLink calculated it's torque:
Code:
package data;

public class TorqueCalc extends CalcRoutine
	{
//	BaroCalc inHGCalc=new BaroCalc(); 
//	IntakeTempCalc tempCalc=new IntakeTempCalc(); 
	RPMCalc revCalc=new RPMCalc();
	VehicleSpeedCalc mphCalc=new VehicleSpeedCalc();
	RunningAverage runAvg=new RunningAverage(6);
			
	float vehicleMass=1550F;
	float tireCirc=2.0F;
	float drivetrainLoss=.2F;
  	float airDensity=1.24F; 
	float finalDrive=4.929F;
	float rollingResistance=0.015F;
	float frontalArea=1.48F;
	float dragCoefficient=0.29F;
	float gravity=9.81F;
	float prevTime = 0;
	float prevVelocity = 0;
	float prevTorque = 0;
	float decay = 5.0F / 6.0F;

	float minTorque=Environment.getMinTorque();
	float maxTorque=Environment.getMaxTorque();
	
	// Gear ratios for 2G AWD

	float firstRatio = 3.083F;
	float secondRatio = 1.684F;
	float thirdRatio = 1.115F;
	float fourthRatio = 0.833F;
	float fifthRatio = 0.666F;
	float firstMphCutoff=170F; 
	float thirdMphCutoff=90F;
	float fourthMphCutoff=65F; 
	float fifthMphCutoff=51F;

	public void setInfo(TOC toc, DisplayDesc desc)
		{
		revCalc.setInfo(toc, desc);
		mphCalc.setInfo(toc, desc);
		}
	protected void _reset()
		{
		revCalc.reset();
		mphCalc.reset();
		runAvg.reset();
		
		vehicleMass=Environment.getVehicleMassFloat();
		tireCirc=Environment.getTireCircFloat();
		drivetrainLoss=Environment.getDrivetrainLossFloat();
		if (Environment.getFwdCar())
			{
			firstRatio =  3.090F;
			secondRatio = 1.883F;
			thirdRatio = 1.217F;
			fourthRatio = 0.888F;
			fifthRatio = 0.741F;
			finalDrive = 4.153F;
			firstMphCutoff=150F; //160-190
			thirdMphCutoff=74F; //64-68.1
			fourthMphCutoff=63F; //59.4
			fifthMphCutoff=49F;
			}
		else
			{
			firstRatio = 3.083F;
			secondRatio = 1.684F;
			thirdRatio = 1.115F;
			fourthRatio = 0.833F;
			fifthRatio = 0.666F;
			finalDrive = 4.929F;
			firstMphCutoff=170F; 
			thirdMphCutoff=90F;
			fourthMphCutoff=65F; 
			fifthMphCutoff=51F;
			}
		}
    private float calculateTorque(float mph, float rpm, float curTime)
        {

		// We have to adjust for which gear we're in
		float gearMult = secondRatio; //default to 2nd gear //118.7
		
		if (rpm/mph>firstMphCutoff) // 216
            {
            gearMult=firstRatio; //1st
            }
        else if (rpm/mph<fifthMphCutoff) // 46.5
            {
            gearMult=fifthRatio; //5th
            }
        else if (rpm/mph<fourthMphCutoff) // 58.7
            {
            gearMult=fourthRatio; //4th
            }
        else if (rpm/mph<thirdMphCutoff)   // 76.6
            {
            gearMult=thirdRatio; //3rd
            } 
		
		float finalDriveInGear = finalDrive * gearMult;
		
		float velocity = rpm * tireCirc / finalDriveInGear / 60F;

		// try to see if we can figure out if they are fwd or awd automatically
		// disabled for now
		// if ( (velocity * 2.236936 - mph) > 5 ) toggleDrivetrain =true;
		
		// we need to account for divide by 0 cases
		float timeDiff = ( curTime - prevTime );
		if ( timeDiff == 0 )
			timeDiff = 0.1F;

		// do the math to calculate torque here
		float accel =  ( velocity - prevVelocity) / ( timeDiff ) ;
		float airDrag = .5F * dragCoefficient * frontalArea * velocity * velocity * airDensity;
		float rollDrag = gravity * rollingResistance * vehicleMass;
		float force = vehicleMass * accel + airDrag + rollDrag;

		// account for drivetrain loss here
		torque = (1F + drivetrainLoss) * ( 0.73756F * force * tireCirc / 6.28F ) / finalDriveInGear;

        if (torque < minTorque) torque = minTorque;
        if (torque > maxTorque) torque = maxTorque;

		// this REALLY helps to smooth things out
		torque = prevTorque*decay + (1.0F - decay)*torque;
		
		// update our  previous values now
        prevTorque = torque;
		prevVelocity=velocity;
		prevTime=curTime; 
	
		return runAvg.next(torque);
        }
	public float next(float vals[])
		{
		float mph = mphCalc.next(vals);
		float rpm = revCalc.next(vals);
		float curTime = vals[0]/1000000F;

        return calculateTorque(mph, rpm, curTime);
		}
    public float next(int index)
		{
        float mph;
        float rpm;
        float curTime;
        if (index+6>=allVals.length)
            {
            mph = mphCalc.next(allVals[allVals.length-1]);
            rpm = revCalc.next(allVals[allVals.length-1]);
            curTime = allVals[allVals.length-1][0]/1000000F;
            }
        else
            {
            mph = mphCalc.next(allVals[index+6]);
            rpm = revCalc.next(allVals[index+6]);
            curTime = allVals[index+6][0]/1000000F;
            }
		
        return calculateTorque(mph, rpm, curTime);
		}
 	public String[] getReqLocs()
		{
		// return inHGCalc.getReqLocs(); 
		// return mphCalc.reqLocs;
		return revCalc.reqLocs;
		}
	float torque;
	}
DSMLink just basically uses RPM and vehicle speed along with a bunch of set paramaters....similarly to the way that DLL or EvoScan or any of the other HP calcs do it now.


Eric
Old Oct 2, 2007, 11:26 AM
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I would be interested in seeing some dyno pulls that have been logged with 2-byte load. It may be a simple relationship between the airflow/rev and the mass airflow, for the torque and horsepower.

Maybe the VE has to be used to.


Eric
Old Oct 2, 2007, 03:55 PM
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Code:
TPS	RPM	Timing	KnockSum	JDMMAP	Load	Hz	AirFlow	gRev	LbsMin	WHP	Lbsft
29.80392157	2000	22	0	-0.37969	79.0625	182.7048438	182.41	0.832236842	3.666241595	36.66241595	96.27550429
29.80392157	2031.25	23	0	-0.18622	78.75	185.0635938	188.7	0.828947368	3.708809124	37.08809124	95.8949687
30.19607843	2062.5	23	0	-0.18622	79.375	189.7810938	188.7	0.835526316	3.795755565	37.95755565	96.65603988
30.19607843	2093.75	22	0	-0.37969	80.3125	193.4175	194.99	0.845394737	3.89877804	38.9877804	97.79764665
30.58823529	2125	20	0	-0.37969	80.3125	197.741875	201.28	0.845394737	3.956968757	39.56968757	97.79764665
42.35294118	2156.25	19	0	1.55501	96.5625	249.634375	251.6	1.016447368	4.827565282	48.27565282	117.5854973
74.90196078	2187.5	15	0	2.52236	112.5	283.7379688	283.05	1.184210526	5.70586019	57.0586019	136.9928124
88.62745098	2250	14	0	2.71583	117.5	306.4409375	308.21	1.236842105	6.12972409	61.2972409	143.0813819
96.07843137	2250	13	0	3.10277	121.5625	323.4435938	327.08	1.279605263	6.34165604	63.4165604	148.0283445
100	2312.5	13	0	3.68318	125.625	338.3823438	339.66	1.322368421	6.735632101	67.35632101	152.9753072
100	2375	11	0	4.26359	130	358.923125	358.53	1.368421053	7.158590308	71.58590308	158.3028055
100	2406.25	8	1	4.26359	134.0625	353.1245313	377.4	1.411184211	7.479431733	74.79431733	163.2497681
100	2468.75	8	1	5.03747	138.75	399.5132813	402.56	1.460526316	7.942013969	79.42013969	168.957802
100	2531.25	5	1	5.61788	144.0625	424.3784375	427.72	1.516447368	8.454862117	84.54862117	175.426907
100	2593.75	8	0	6.19829	150.9375	454.1576563	452.88	1.588815789	9.077072586	90.77072586	183.79869
100	2625	8	0	7.16564	158.125	483.54375	484.33	1.664473684	9.623884187	96.23884187	192.5510086
100	2687.5	8	0	7.74605	165.9375	521.676875	522.07	1.746710526	10.33983379	103.3983379	202.0643983
100	2750	7	0	8.90687	174.375	556.1735938	559.81	1.835526316	11.11827614	111.1827614	212.3388593
100	2812.5	7	0	9.87422	182.5	599.8104688	597.55	1.921052632	11.90079411	119.0079411	222.2327846
100	2875	7	0	11.03504	194.0625	632.2432813	660.45	2.042763158	12.93600017	129.3600017	236.3126014
100	2937.5	6	0	12.96974	208.75	722.2689063	723.35	2.197368421	14.21755449	142.1755449	254.1977742
100	3031.25	5	0	14.90444	225.3125	790.3778125	798.83	2.371710526	15.83534699	158.3534699	274.3661604
100	3125	3	0	16.64567	240.625	878.634375	886.89	2.532894737	17.4345728	174.345728	293.0124044
100	3187.5	2	0	19.54772	263.4375	991.854375	1000.11	2.773026316	19.46921009	194.6921009	320.7915024
100	3281.25	1	0	22.83671	286.25	1097.310156	1107.04	3.013157895	21.77736639	217.7736639	348.5706005
100	3437.5	1	0	23.80406	278.75	1114.607656	1119.62	2.934210526	22.21662706	222.1662706	339.4377463
100	3531.25	2	0	24.38447	266.5625	1102.813906	1113.33	2.805921053	21.8246888	218.246888	324.5968583
100	3593.75	1	1	25.15835	282.5	1203.159063	1207.68	2.973684211	23.53893751	235.3893751	344.0041734
100	3781.25	1	1	24.96488	270.625	1169.94	1169.94	2.848684211	23.72596293	237.2596293	329.543821
100	3875	3	1	23.41712	248.4375	1115.590469	1113.33	2.615131579	22.32078165	223.2078165	302.5257941
100	3968.75	2	1	22.83671	270	1255.346406	1258	2.842105263	24.84494551	248.4494551	328.7827498
100	4125	1	1	25.35182	289.0625	1370.925156	1371.22	3.042763158	27.64625116	276.4625116	351.9954208
100	4187.5	2	1	24.57794	256.875	1241.881875	1264.29	2.703947368	24.94004318	249.4004318	312.800255
100	4312.5	3	1	24.96488	267.5	1331.9075	1320.9	2.815789474	26.74689891	267.4689891	325.7384651
100	4468.75	6	0	23.03018	240.625	1244.240625	1251.71	2.532894737	24.93143911	249.3143911	293.0124044
100	4500	5	0	23.22365	266.875	1434.021719	1452.99	2.809210526	27.84459773	278.4459773	324.9773939
100	4656.25	4	0	25.73876	270.625	1440.41	1427.83	2.848684211	29.2162684	292.162684	329.543821
100	4781.25	7	0	24.38447	254.6875	1418.591563	1427.83	2.680921053	28.23381891	282.3381891	310.1365059
100	4843.75	6	0	25.54529	270.625	1538.003281	1547.34	2.848684211	30.39276243	303.9276243	329.543821
100	5000	6	0	24.96488	264.0625	1520.214375	1522.18	2.779605263	30.61239277	306.1239277	321.5525736
100	5093.75	7	0	24.38447	256.875	1520.705781	1522.18	2.703947368	30.33751522	303.3751522	312.800255
100	5187.5	8	0	22.83671	243.75	1475.692969	1478.15	2.565789474	29.31725307	293.1725307	296.8177603
100	5312.5	8	0	22.64324	259.375	1592.254531	1603.95	2.730263158	31.9482886	319.482886	315.8445398
100	5468.75	7	0	24.96488	270.625	1708.226406	1603.95	2.848684211	34.3144092	343.144092	329.543821
100	5562.5	7	0	24.38447	263.75	1701.739844	1603.95	2.776315789	34.01598365	340.1598365	321.172038
100	5656.25	8	0	23.80406	263.4375	1734.074375	1603.95	2.773026316	34.54830418	345.4830418	320.7915024
100	5781.25	8	0	23.99753	263.75	1774.369688	1603.95	2.776315789	35.35369088	353.5369088	321.172038
100	5875	9	0	23.80406	260.9375	1782.133906	1603.95	2.746710526	35.54388622	355.4388622	317.7472177
100	6000	9	0	23.41712	260	1811.126875	1603.95	2.736842105	36.16971945	361.6971945	316.6056109
100	6125	9	0	23.22365	258.125	1829.210625	1603.95	2.717105263	36.6569818	366.569818	314.3223974
100	6187.5	9	0	23.22365	257.5	1851.225625	1603.95	2.710526316	36.94136912	369.4136912	313.5613262
100	6312.5	10	0	23.03018	254.6875	1871.373281	1603.95	2.680921053	37.27602235	372.7602235	310.1365059
100	6375	10	0	23.41712	253.4375	1881.103125	1603.95	2.667763158	37.46033069	374.6033069	308.6143636
100	6531.25	11	0	22.83671	250.625	1881.397969	1603.95	2.638157895	37.95257434	379.5257434	305.1895432
100	6656.25	10	1	23.03018	246.875	1897.614375	1603.95	2.598684211	38.10020215	381.0020215	300.6231162
100	6750	10	1	21.86936	245	1912.651406	1603.95	2.578947368	38.34338048	383.4338048	298.3399026
100	6843.75	11	1	21.67589	241.5625	1912.651406	1603.95	2.542763158	38.33047437	383.3047437	294.1540111
100	6906.25	11	1	21.28895	319.6875	1922.184688	1603.95	3.365131579	51.1903964	511.903964	389.2879086
100	7000	11	1	20.90201	236.5625	1921.398438	1603.95	2.490131579	38.39409923	383.9409923	288.0654417
100	7093.75	12	0	20.70854	234.375	1922.872656	1603.95	2.467105263	38.54851974	385.4851974	285.4016926
100	7187.5	12	0	21.67589	233.125	1935.944063	1603.95	2.453947368	38.84966236	388.4966236	283.8795502
100	7250	12	0	21.48242	230.9375	1936.926875	1603.95	2.430921053	38.81977452	388.1977452	281.2158011
100	7343.75	13	0	20.51507	228.75	1941.349531	1603.95	2.407894737	38.94928849	389.4928849	278.5520519
100	7437.5	13	0	19.93466	226.25	1939.482188	1603.95	2.381578947	39.01540401	390.1540401	275.5077672
100	7500	13	0	20.51507	224.375	1944.985938	1603.95	2.361842105	39.0172154	390.172154	273.2245537
100	7562.5	14	0	19.54772	222.8125	1948.425781	1603.95	2.345394737	39.068387	390.68387	271.3218757
100	7625	14	0	19.93466	220.9375	1948.130938	1603.95	2.325657895	39.05978292	390.5978292	269.0386622
100	7687.5	14	0	19.74119	218.75	1950.293125	1603.95	2.302631579	38.99004463	389.9004463	266.3749131
94.90196078	7781.25	14	0	19.35425	197.8125	1733.189844	1585.08	2.082236842	35.68811768	356.8811768	240.8790285
Another failed attempt at posting a smooth looking graph, but what I am finding is that if you follow peak Hz, it ramps really really fast and then will plateau. As soon as it plateaus (in this case about 1881hz and 6312 rpm) I figured this was probably peak power and it follows dynosheets very closely so far. I am sure that peak torque isnt quite at peak load (3500 +/-) but it will be fairly close. I am using the old 10whp/1lb of airflow rule that generally represents a dynojet. It would be really easy to alter this to other dyno correction (i.e. the dyno that any one inidividual uses regularly) to guesstimate change.

Last edited by JohnBradley; Oct 2, 2007 at 03:59 PM.
Old Oct 2, 2007, 04:01 PM
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The xml (which is VERY VERY basic at this point)-

<DataListItem DataLog="Y" Color="" Display="HP" LogReference="WHP" RequestID="00" Eval="[LbsMin]*10" Unit="whp" MetricEval="" MetricUnit="" ResponseBytes="1" GaugeMin="0" GaugeMax="1000" ChartMin="0" ChartMax="1000" ScalingFactor="1" Notes=""/>

<DataListItem DataLog="Y" Color="" Display="Torque" LogReference="Lbsft" RequestID="00" Eval="([WHP]*5252/[rpm])" Unit="lbsft" MetricEval="" MetricUnit="" ResponseBytes="1" GaugeMin="0" GaugeMax="1000" ChartMin="0" ChartMax="1000" ScalingFactor="1" Notes=""/>


I also hadnt seen the code for DSMlink until now so it becomes obvious I underestimated the equation. I am going to have to figure out some more math and how to implement that into EvoScan. The one thing that I am not quite sure about is how to have it detect the taper in Hz. I dont have enough definitive proof that thats always where peak power is going to be, but the circumstantial evidence looks to point that way.

Last edited by JohnBradley; Oct 2, 2007 at 04:18 PM.


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